01-05-2004 12:08									#61
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Looking at the last save, one sees many possibilities. Camels are ripening for the first WOW, there is roading to be done, exploring and hut hunting are also on the agenda.

I agree that total city number should be held here pending a happiness solution; but, I do not agree that temples are required, now. Without Mysticism, a warrior will help as much, quicker, and at a quarter the cost. I prefer to focus on getting HG for the happiness problems. So, two of the four temple B/O's are changed to warrior.

700 Complete MPE in Stoney Lake. American civ destroyed by the Japanese.

675 There are seven techs available from the AI. The decision is taken to get them all sooner (rather than in many stages), before we generate more valuable techs that they will then demand for trades. We will get all their maps as well.

Greek - Mysticism
Egypt - Pott
Viks - Horse, Fe
Russ - Mason
Jap - Math, Wheel

Will choose Lit for next research.

650 Hut (122,12) yeilds Chariot (will captain a boat, I think)
Temples in SB and KD

The next few turns were for camels and more settlers.

525 Lit -> Poly (for Phil->Mono)

500 Hut (140,16) -> 100g. Barbs take Thebes (now two Barb cities)

450 Hut (139,5) -> Nomad HG one turn away in Slim Buttes.

Monk

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	01-05-2004 12:35									#62
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The offshore settlers are building roads (for the arrow) prior to founding more cities. I especially like the idea of building at (117,15) to pick up the two stranded specials.

Check the AI cities list for WOW endeavors. The Vikings are racing us for HG. Giving them Literacy will make them more likely to switch to Great Library when we build HG.

I fancy LH after HG so we can be safer at sea and trade some. I like the idea of getting the War academy but not until we are about to go to war. Mainly, it's because of the missing warrior line for rushing. Because, I forsee many cities, I think Mike's Chapel is a better buy than temples everywhere. Temples will eventually be needed, but, camels seem a more important build at this stage. Finally, I think Cope's (in SB) will give us all the boost we need for research. (HG, LH, MC, CO, STWA)

Happy hunting!!

Monk

	01-05-2004 14:05									#63
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Great game guys - going through RL & new machine trials and tribulations here - rejoin you all soonest

Stu

	01-05-2004 23:43									#64
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I'm picking it up now. May not get to play 10 turns, but I want to get some action in.

	02-05-2004 03:48									#65
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Go for it debeest! I am ready and waiting tonight at your posting.

Monk: a very interesting turnset. I loved your consolidation of the extended position left you by our lagomorphic friend. After your turns I saw the following decision forks:
1. Total War (barracks, temples, run to Chiv)
2. HG, Mono and MC first, then to Chiv
3. Build Civ first (Republic, Demo, SSC or STC, get all the wonders, then romp)
4 Combine these plans

My instinct would have been total war: Feudalism - Chivalry and start clobbering the Japanese and the Vikings ASAP. The extra cities (especially the nice Japaneses home cities) would provide extra science for advancement toward Navigation and Magellans As that conquest was proceeding, the home island would be working on STWA and creating science via judicious foreign caravan deliveries to get to Navigation. The hope would be to combine the various decision forks.

Your path was more in the line of decision fork 3, presumably because you saw that the map was so large that Magellans was necessary, with the implication that a real science-producing civ is necessary, at least for the short term.

I would note that King Richard seems morally obligatory this game, as if it becomes obsolete we lose.

OK, debeest, let's see what you decide here!

	02-05-2004 04:24									#66
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Hurrah! I got ten turns done after all.

Grigor, I love to read stuff like your last post, attentive to the grand strategy; that's what makes the succession games fun, I think. And I love the suggestion about KRC.

My natural instincts lead me toward your option #3, and since as you noted, BM had already pointed us that way, I gleefully went with it.

Here's my commentary and log and save:


Romp Free-for-All (Sioux) 450 BC - 200 BC

Special rules: industrialization loses; no techs beyond tactics

We can learn 54 techs before we get to tactics (though some we'll want to skip). Espionage is the only really useful tech we won't be able to get to. But with tactics coming at the end, we won't get to have much use of that one either. Looks like a Gitsgame: clads and crooks, with dragoons later and finally some cavalry. The 55-tech timeframe will probably fit reasonably well with the 1500AD cutoff for restarts. But we'll have to work hard to knock the AI down to zoo cities before then in order to ensure that they don't ever reach industrialization. It's worth noting that eventually the science half of the caravan delivery bonus will become worthless to us.

450 BC, 11 cities up to size 4, 18 techs, researching polytheism; well ahead of all AIs
30%-70%-0% -- 378 beakers per tech, 30 beakers per turn, so 13 turns per tech, currently one third of the way to poly
16 gold per turn, 88 in the bank; 46 shields per turn; 570K population
Universal peace, but almost universal hostility. Supreme and spotless.
7 settlers, 4 triremes, 25 military units, 2 caravans with 10 in progress
We have MPE. No one else has any Wonder. Vikings are working on HG, but so are we, and we'll get it first.
Our cities are uniformly well placed. Well done, all you Sacajaweans emeritus!
Five or more closely spaced continents all to ourselves, with the Japanese immediately to our south. We couldn't ask for more room in which to develop. The intercontinental trading opportunities should be enormous.

I agree fully with Monk's general goals and plans: HG, MC, Cope, LH, STWA. Keep lots of cities happy, form a basis for fast science, and build lots of powerful veteran units. Magellan later.

Production in all cities is carefully calibrated for maximally efficient productivity. Well done, Monk. Unit support is well distributed. I shift from fish to whales in Running Bear and Point of Rock; growth is important, but I'd rather have the extra trade arrow and two shields than the one extra food, especially in Point of Rocks which is about to grow anyway. Partial caravan rushbuys in Wood Lake and Stony Lake. Change to horsemen in Dead Buffalo and warrior in Raging Brook for exploring and huts so ships don't go to waste.

Press Enter.

-425. With Slim Buttes now producing 8 shields per turn, and with no cities needing Elvi, I opt to hold onto the caravan and let the city finish HG in four turns on its own. We can always send in the camel if the Vikes threaten to build it first.
Build Silver Moon at 138,4 on the northern tip of the eastern continent. It needs Elvis, but none of the others do.

-400. Village at 145,7 on continent east of Silver Moon yields astronomy.
Rushbuy warrior in Silver Moon so citizens can go whaling.
Elvis before growth in Three Forks.

-375. Japanese undertake HG.
Load two captains onto ships.

-350. Vikings capture Japanese Satsuma, learn math. J
Village at 121,29 east of Dead Buffalo yields horsemen.
Elvi in Bear Paw and Dead Buffalo before growth..

-325. Slim Buttes builds Hanging Gardens (Japanese abandon, Vikes switch to Pyramids).
Population 700K.
Put all three Elvi back to work.
Begin and complete Colossus in Slim Buttes.
Village at 114,44 on Japanese continent yields construction.

-300. Slim Buttes builds Colossus. Begins Copernicus.
Build Wildcat Valley at 130,14 on island northeast of Slim Buttes island.

-275. Build Feeder1 to fill in the middle of our homeland and support units.

-250. Barb trireme near Running Bear.

-225. Japanese capture Russian Kiev.
Build Feeder2 northeast of Slim Buttes.
Switch and complete legion in Running Bear to defend against barbs.

-200. Population 800K.
Village 127,31 east of Dead Buffalo yields barb hordes. Bye, horsie.
Build Snake Canyon northeast of Dead Buffalo.
Build First Wind near Raging Brook.
Japanese and Greeks refuse to trade maps.


Grigor,

I took a chance building Snake Canyon with all those barbs about to wander that way, but I've started to build dips both there and in Dead Buffalo that I hope can deal with them (we'll need to save up some cash, so I did no partial rushbuilding).

There are five caravans poised in the middle of the continent and another not far away. My plan was to build Lighthouse in Feeder1 in a couple of turns, since there's no chance of the AI stealing Copernicus, but the vans can go anywhere in a turn or two, and the new king might choose to build Cope instead and double the 14 beakers per turn (for now), or even pre-empt the Pyramids if he feels confident about getting Lighthouse later. Lighthouse would help push back the barbarian frontier.

There are settlers with the legion near Running Bear; I was planning for them t build in the forest at 102,6.

Barbs aside, it looks to me as if we are in an excellent position at this point in the game. We have 22 techs; the next nearest civs have 16, 13, and 11. Have fun, Sacajawea the Younger!

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	02-05-2004 05:36									#67
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Good turns debeest. We are developing nicely, I think.

Monk

	02-05-2004 05:39									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Grigor My instinct would have been total war: Feudalism - Chivalry and start clobbering the Japanese and the Vikings ASAP. snip Your path was more in the line of decision fork 3, presumably because you saw that the map was so large that Magellans was necessary, with the implication that a real science-producing civ is necessary, at least for the short term. I would note that King Richard seems morally obligatory this game, as if it becomes obsolete we lose.

Grigor,

You can take that path. But, noting how we are still researching Poly (as I left it), I think Cope's is called for. The earlier the start of conflict the more congested the choices become. My preference is to prepare and do a blitz with far superior units, even though that will take more time. But this is a community dance and you can call that tune if you desire.

Yes to Magellan and for King's Crusade. Looks like Bear Paw would be a good candidate as it won't have many shields otherwise. Also, debeest's idea to build the Pyramids has merit if we are to fight now. Armies need full tummies, after all!!

Monk

	02-05-2004 06:41									#69
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Great turnset, debeest! The feeder cities were a great call, as were the horses to captain the triremes. I am on it now, with the decision before me of which wonders to take.

	02-05-2004 08:03									#70
	Turnset 200bc to 1ad Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

With our 5 vans, I will go with Pyramids - it should be of the most use in the medium term. My successor will have no trouble churning out the settlers and vans, plus in a a few turns, there will be about 6 size 5 cities, and Xinning could be very profitable.

My 10-turn goals: Pyramids, (LH), Cope's. Discover Poly. Use foreign trade for Philosophy, Mono. Pump vans for MC. Chivalry will have to wait for civilization.

200 reset workers for more food in Running Bear, First Wind, and Snake Canyon. RB warrior in Feeder1. Press Enter
175 Barbs destroy brave horsie. Build Pyr in Feeder 1, renamed Cheops. Settler joins city of Running Bear. Legion smites barbs, becomes vet. Hut: 50g (Wah, should have been a tribe...)
150* Cheops builds Pyramids; Vikes switch to LH (which we will have to capture). Three Forks: silver caravan (Kaupang, Moscow)
125 Uppsala builds LH. Discover Poly. Philosophy not offered => Eng
100 Continuing to build caravans, strategically pre-Rushbuy, and avoid unhappiness
75 ditto
50* ditto
25 Stony Lake Dye to Slim Buttes (d, 60). Hut: Engineering!! big decision coming. Hut: Nomad
1AD now researching Philosophy. Yellowtree founded. OK, let's see the next round!

Comments: Monk's idea to build King Richard in Bear Paw is a good one. Move the caravan near Slim buttes over there and there should be a good opportunity in several turns. After Philosophy, Mono should be available, so a continuation of caravan building should be a good thing. After Copes is built in Slim buttes, a market and a Library should be in order. Trade routes from Slim Buttes are already profitable. Wood Lake can be a good trade city too. There is a barb crisis on the near eastern island. There is a beads caravan on the way to Uppsala - it should arrive about 500ad

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	02-05-2004 09:50									#71
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Way to shake things up, Grigor!!

Well this will be interesting. My initial impression is that "The Big Pile of Rocks" is out of sequence and will cause more happiness problems than we can deal with until we get the Chapel. But, then, maybe not...if the extra citizen is made a scientist and the workers are adjusted to end the food drive, all will be well. The best part of SXN games is playing different ways.

But, we will miss the Lighthouse and it must be a priority...or so I now think.

Whoever is next might want to rush that diplomat, and change the sliders to favor taxes for a turn, to deal with the Barb rush at Snake Canyon. Also, the founding of Yellowtree has triggered a revolting situation; better check the attitude screen before hitting Enter. And, there is a wandering camel but it is NOT Beads; Silver is not demanded in Uppsala.

Suggestion: I think we need at least one boat for ferrying camels, demanded in SB, back to the Home Island. Three routes there will be welcome.

Monk

	02-05-2004 15:57									#72
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Well, I was playing rapidly in classic Gits style and a few details may have been confused

The caravan was supposed to be a beads caravan from Slim Buttes, but it seems to be a silver caravan from Three Forks
Perhaps it should be redirected to Moscow

When Philosophy is discovered, one might also consider a switch to Republic

Monk - the big rockpile is out of fashion at Apolyton, I know. I went there in part because the AI is so far away that I thought home trade was going to be more of a priority. Its value is in two places: first, in the acceleration of new cities growing to size 3, and second in providing half a food box for Xinning after size 5. (see Killdeer, Bearpaw, Three Forks, and Woodlake) Slow Thinker has explored the early pyramids idea in csome of his games, although I tend not to have the discipline to fully execute his strategy

As to its being out of sequence, I can never figure out when it is in sequence - nor is it ever really out of sequence - it is always a potential happiness headache which pays its dividends over time, so in that sense, the earlier the better.

I also toyed with lighthouse and forcing the Rompers to Chivalry - now that would have shaken the game up bigtime!

	02-05-2004 20:15									#73
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Others may get different milage out of this, Grigor; but I would rather have LH and Chivalry than no Lighthouse. But that is the fun part of SXN games. There is no ONE path, just the path upon which we currently find ourselves.

Getting Republic to give away will make for better trade "partners." But, until we build Shakes', in SB, there is no point to forcing more growth; the Pyramids will be enough. I would assume we will eventually get the Statue and go soft Fundy. Because of the happiness problems of having huge cities under Monarchy, I don't think Republic will be helpful until Fundy is on the horizon. A switch from Rep back to Mon will be frought with red faces.

Who plays next??

Monk

	03-05-2004 04:03									#74
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I can try another round, but I'm not sure our great civilization will have advanced a lot further after I have reigned
I have done 6 turns now, I'll finish the rest tomorrow.
Barb threat is pretty much gone, and we have philosophy (and monotheism).

	03-05-2004 18:11									#75
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This is becoming interesting...

It's clear that we've had diplomatic relations with the AI, but there's a definite paucity of detail re any tech trading, gifting, map acquisition, etc. What hath marco Polo wrought?

Oh, and just one note from the rabbit hole --

In my experience, it seems that building KRC sets at least one AI onto a "beeline to Industrialization" strategy. Normally, I wouldn't worry, but (1) that is our Losing Condintion, (2) this is a gigamap, and (3) lacking LH will impede our ability to explore. So I would suggest that KRC is a luxury we may wish to forego. (Similarly, in this game we should probably skip the "RR Gift" strategem, since that will allow IND as next tech.)

	03-05-2004 19:28									#76
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We have HG, right? So the AI will be shooting for RR anyway...

	03-05-2004 21:16									#77
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit This is becoming interesting... It's clear that we've had diplomatic relations with the AI, but there's a definite paucity of detail re any tech trading, gifting, map acquisition, etc. What hath marco Polo wrought? Oh, and just one note from the rabbit hole -- In my experience, it seems that building KRC sets at least one AI onto a "beeline to Industrialization" strategy. Normally, I wouldn't worry, but (1) that is our Losing Condintion, (2) this is a gigamap, and (3) lacking LH will impede our ability to explore. So I would suggest that KRC is a luxury we may wish to forego. (Similarly, in this game we should probably skip the "RR Gift" strategem, since that will allow IND as next tech.)

As I mentioned in my 450 turnset log, after completing MPE, I grabbed all seven AI techs and got their maps. In getting maps I gave them techs only to Cordial to limit their accumulation. And then I suggested that we not do any more tech trades/gifts so as not to help them any further. We will steal what they research--like Seafaring, which the Chin now have available. I hope you have heard little more on the diplo front because nobody has given them anything.

Your concern about KRC is interesting and that connection is a good catch. I so seldom build it that I never noticed any such linkage. My experience is that the AI make a beeline for Indu anyway though, and demand it over everything else once I discover it. Because I think KRC will help us more, I would risk it. But that's just me. If we can go get the Lighthouse quickly, and knock back the Jap too, it should be okay. But KRC isn't an "A list" WOW for me, either. MC, ST, and STWA are a higher priority, I think. We can try a "Fundy-like" research strategy to slow the AI down. We need Medicine (ST) and Feudalism (STWA), then we can drop the science slider to 10% and use trade for the discoveries.

As for your "RR Gift", I agree and restate the principal, "NO TECH TRADES OR GIFTS". The only possible exception might be Republic to handicap their production and give them happiness problems; but, even Republic has the downside of possibly helping their research. (Only possibly because AI favors food and shields over arrows.)

A tangent applying to Early Landing Games: I don't like gifting Indu in those games because they always go for Commie, which blows my MPE. There does seem to be some directedness (to kill WOW's) in the AI research choices.

on the deep thoughts from the "rabbit hole". You must have a "study" complete with a comfy chair away from the rest of the hutch.

Monk

	03-05-2004 21:34									#78
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No I give up, someone else play this turn. I don't understand the whole concept of caravans anyway. I just build troops

	03-05-2004 21:41									#79
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JR, on my turnset, BM had just ensured that no AI civ had any techs we didn't have. As noted in my log, I did try to swap maps again with a couple of the isolated civs, but they refused. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if none of the AI civs would want to swap techs with us even if we wanted to.

	03-05-2004 22:51									#80
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Sorry, gang, I must've misread the Monk's log. When he said:

quote: 675 There are seven techs available from the AI. The decision is taken to get them all sooner (rather than in many stages), before we generate more valuable techs that they will then demand for trades. We will get all their maps as well.

I took that as his intent, not necessarily his action. The lack of info on which AIs were close to us, what was trade for what, etc. misled me. The declaration of Lit as the next tech should have been my clue.

If I was more patient, I would have D/L'd the save and opened at home. But it's easier and more fun to troll from the hi-speed connect @ work!

	03-05-2004 22:57									#81
	Re: Romp -- an Early Conquest Succession Game Inflate your Upload Space

BM, you state:

quote: I agree and restate the principal, "NO TECH TRADES OR GIFTS". The only possible exception might be Republic

Yet the first post of this thread states:

quote: Originally posted by Old n Slow Just a couple of special rules in addtion to the 'Poly constraints (no re-homing, etc.) #2 -- If anyone discovers Industrialization, we lose. GAME OVER. #1 -- The last tech we will research is Tactics. (better get Magnetism beforehand…) We're the Sioux -- and we'd like to get back with all those folks who smacked us with better technology. (snip) Bloodlust. MGE. Giga. Restarts…ON. . Pick up & go...(no formal list yet, and maybe not at all...)

Did I miss something? Was a "no trade/no gift" clause inserted at some point?

	03-05-2004 23:53									#82
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JR - I don't think BM was quoting a game rule, just STRONGLY "suggesting" we not tech trade after his MPE love-fest. With tech progress a losing condition for this game we need to discourage AI progress as much as possible.

I like the way several people have restated the Game Rules at the top of their logs.

quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk We can try a "Fundy-like" research strategy to slow the AI down. We need Medicine (ST) and Feudalism (STWA), then we can drop the science slider to 10% and use trade for the discoveries.

Might as well switch to a caravan-trading tech strategy sooner rather than later. Med would be nice for the SSC but Feud is not a pre-condition for conquest. Build and deliver the caravans and it will be along shortly.

quote: A tangent applying to Early Landing Games: I don't like gifting Indust in those games because they always go for Commie, which blows my MPE. There does seem to be some directedness (to kill WOW's) in the AI research choices.

Enough players have commented about AI research skewing toward Wonder-obsoleting techs that we can consider it a general principle. A few times in EL games I used the building of Oracle to encourage their research toward MT and Theology. Once a few of them have Indust, though, I like to give it to all of them because the immediate result is they start building Transports, which make great bribery targets.

	04-05-2004 00:24									#83
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I am sure the confusion is my fault; sorry you were misled, JR.

As the unruly principal author of this principle I hope not to be ruled in violation of making new rules in the guise of strategy.

No, it's not a rule. So if you want to help the AI along by gifting them all our techs you are free to do that.

Monk

Last edited by Bloody Monk on 04-05-2004 at 00:30

	04-05-2004 00:37									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Trajanus No I give up, someone else play this turn. I don't understand the whole concept of caravans anyway. I just build troops

What do you not understand, T?? No time like the present to learn something new, right?? It's okay to ask. I do it all the time.

Monk

	04-05-2004 01:08									#85
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I seem to be perceptually challenged this week...

	04-05-2004 01:26									#86
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Most Recent Player list:
Grigor
debeest
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-Jrabbit

	04-05-2004 01:45									#87
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What to do with all the caravans.. They only help wonders, but what's the use of them even if you're not building wonders. They could be used to complete a wonder in just a few turns or even 1 turn, but that's it really. Why not simply spam military troops and raze the Japanese and Russians right away

	04-05-2004 02:21									#88
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Boy, Trajanus, are you likely to get swamped with responses on trade! I, being closer than average to your apparent position on trade, will try to ease you into it.

A caravan used to build a Wonder is worth 50 shields, which is worth 200 gold toward building the Wonder. Simple and straightforward.

A caravan delivered for trade produces a delivery bonus plus an ongoing trade route. The delivery bonus can range from small to very large, depending on many factors, and the gold bonus is matched by an equal science bonus. So deliveries worth more than 100g produce more immediate value than Wonder-building. Deliveries worth less than 100g produce less immediate value than Wonder-building.

Trade routes can range anywhere from 0 arrows up to around maybe 30 arrows per turn.

Many people here are convinced that one of the earliest highest priorities is to establish three trade routes in their capital/SSC.

My own opinion is that neither the delivery bonus nor the trade route is likely to pay off as well as Wonder-building until you have a combination of several of the multipliers that add value to the delivery bonus: demanded commodity, foreign civ, foreign continent, long distance, cities with large combined trade. If you look at the formula for delivery bonus (in the Great Library), you can fairly easily calculate the approximate delivery bonus from any caravan.

Until I can confidently deliver caravans worth more than 100g, I use caravans mostly for Wonder-building. Once your value is exceeding 100g, it's often better to deliver and then use the gold to buy the Wonders.

Building a caravan costs 50 shields; rush-buying it row-by-row costs on the order of 125 gold. So, any delivery bonus over half of 125g is likely to pay the entire cost of the caravan immediately, plus potentially begin to pay trade route dividends.

If you're producing more caravans than you can use to build Wonders, it may be worthwhile to deliver them in trade. On the other hand, if their delivery value is still below 62g, you're probably better off building something else.

Trade route payoffs depend only on combined trade of the cities, foreign-trade multiplier, and road/railroad connection. Trade routes are generally very small (0-4 arrows) until cities are grown and connected.

	04-05-2004 03:04									#89
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Excellent piece on Camels, debeest. Very solid in theory. In practice, I would make one smallish change to the theory. I apply a tougher standard, what I call the "Sustainable Cash Flow Hurdle."

Beakers and on-going Trade Routes are a very important consideration, to be sure. But, you can't eat them; or more to the point, you can't buy the next camel without the cash. So, I make the bonus cutoff ~125g, double what you say. The rest is a ditto.

Now, if we could just get Trajanus to be serious. You weren't being serious were you, T?? Perhaps my perceptions are being challenged, too.

Old and Slow is free to play or anyone else (not restricted) can take a turn.

Monk

	04-05-2004 05:26									#90
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Good point, Monk. When you get to the point where you can rushbuy the camel and then the delivery pays for it immediately, the science and the trade route are free, and you've got the goose that lays the golden eggs. I suppose that's why someone famously declared a few years ago, "If you don't have a pressing reason to build something else, build caravans."