28-04-2004 12:50									#31
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

As far as I'm concerned, bloodlust just means that you have to win by conquest. Playing on MGE, I haven't noticed that the AI is less likely to give you cease-fires or peace, etc. I've found that diplomacy is as usual, just that you can't win by SS. In fact, I'm not even sure if you're allowed to build SS parts - but my games have never gone that far.

	28-04-2004 20:10									#32
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Thanks, doy.

How does bloodlust affect trade?? Is it possible to deliver camels to inland destinations or do they automatically get whacked??

Monk

	28-04-2004 20:18									#33
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You're not automatically at war with anyone. Camels will be treated the same under bloodlust as they would by the AI in a normal game. The only difference is that you can't win by reaching AC. Also, the Apollo Program only has half the effect.

	28-04-2004 20:36									#34
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Thanks again, duke.

By half the effect, I presume one gets the map uncovered half but not the ability to build ss parts half, right??

It is beginning to come back to me why I stopped playing bloodlust setting. It doesn't seem to mean anything (aside from no AC). If one plays regular setting but limits oneself to conquest then the AI has two ways to win -v- conquest only for the human.

BTW, this is not a complaint. Just mentioning a "beauty mark" on the pretty face of our lovely game.

Monk

	28-04-2004 21:53									#35
	Increase Your PM Length

To me, the bloodlust setting is simply a realistic label for what's going to happen anyway.

RAR"R"Us...

	28-04-2004 23:59									#36
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DoY has the right of it. The ONLY thing that "Bloodlust" does is suppress the ability to build SS stuff (and thus the SS). If I recall correctly we had a game where we were to conquer, but the ai could build a SS -- and sure enough, late in the game a player wasted effort trying to build such garbage -- until RCC set him correctly on his way.

Rather than allowing such things to happen, I set O Sole Mio & Romp up accordingly.

	29-04-2004 00:54									#37
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That's good OnS!!

I my (former) business that is covered by the adage, "Avoid the Danger that has not yet come."

So, this all means to me that we need more cities in our local "cluster", for a critical mass; a select group of WOW's, to forge the hammer; and, some limited trade for cash and beakers. Where possible, demanded deliveries should preceed or accompany the invasion force.

The Upper Limit Constraint on Research means to me that the sooner we cull the herds and make zoo gardens the better. But we will need to get the top tech before we dial back science to nothing to slow the AI down. A bit of friendly trade seems in order for now.

This should be fun!! Won't somebody please play.

Monk

	29-04-2004 18:56									#38
	Remove this text

1950 BC: nothink
1900 BC: hut => chariot!
1850 BC: Bear Paw founded, with a whale and fish \o/! And worthless chariot disbanded in killdeer
1800 BC: some barbs approaching in petty trireme.
1750 BC: nothink
1700 BC: barbs landed
1650 BC: barbs slaughtered, and we have an elite warrior \o/
1600 BC: started research on map making
1550 BC: nothink
1500 BC: Big mound founded. Wood Lake founded, has a whale, and 3 shielded grassland easily accessible for road improvement

Attachment: sa_b1500.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	29-04-2004 21:15									#39
	Remove this text

Thanks for stepping in, Trajanus!! For someone who fretted that he might wreck our civ, this was quite good. We all welcome you.

The only tweak I wonder about is how that useless disbanded chariot will be missed when we are looking about for an explorer for the first boat we are about to build. Sometimes short term negatives become a longer term plus. In this vein, might not the build orders for Phalanx be changed to Settlers pending a switch to Trireme when the current research ripens?? Warriors will suffice for martial law at this stage.

I note again that the Woodlake site is a four special (one hidden).

So, who's next??

Monk

	29-04-2004 21:51									#40
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Found my Civ2 CD; 10 turns should be a nice lunch break.

	29-04-2004 23:17									#41
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Go for it, Elle!!

We have boats coming and camels could be next. Choose wisely.

Monk

	30-04-2004 02:10									#42
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Well I started some phalanx because barbs may start coming. A warrior doesn't have a very big chance of killing 2 barb archers right...

And I disbanded the chariot, because I had a settler ready to be built, so killdeer size would drop, and it would have a few shields upkeep. But you're right I could have simply switched the upkeep to another city and use it for exploration afterwards. My mistake

Ps there's always the other chariot for the first trireme.

	30-04-2004 02:38									#43
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The play was easy (but heart-breaking); the writeup took the time...

Rules:
#1- Last tech is Tactics
#2- Indust=lose
Bloodlust/MGE/Gigamap/Restarts
Alp/CoL/Bro/MON/Cur/Map...
BM-Grigor-Traj-moi

7 cities
got 23b, 7t@14b/t=90b
got 57g, 7g/t
got 3 settlers, 5 warriors, 1 archer & 1 chariot
we are 1st or 2nd in all but MilService
Civs: (Rome restarted)/Jap/Viking/Egypt/(cyan?)/Greek/SIOUX
Barbs own city of Rome...
Kyoto size 4, rest size 3; ours 1&2

what's all this money laying around?
a little tweaking of workers, all prod to Settlers but BM
goals: finish Map, get Trade, get some ships in water
at 16b/t, 5 more turns till Map, move worker in SL to ocean

1450(1): 65g, 40b, 6t@17b (3/0/7)
...a little RushBuying

1400(2): 45g, 57b, 6t
...a bit more

1350bc(3): 39g, 74b, 6t
...and another bit

MAPMAKING; start Trade (over Horse/Mas/Myst/Pott/War)
1300(4): 34g, 0b, 7t@16b/need 105b
...switch 4 cities to ships
...Cyan is American

1250(5): 34g, 16b, 7t
...3 new ships, one with Chariot & Settler going north

Herodotus LARGEST: #1=Sioux!
Settlers BearPaw
1200(6): 42g, 31b,7t
...clearing black ocean tiles, looking for nearby land

Barbs land NW of Slim Buttes! 2xArch+Ldr
POP>200K
1150(7): 41g,47b,7t
...SlimButtes size 3; disband Warrior for Phalanx
Barb Archer+Ldr head east; 2nd goes NE?

1100(8): 15g,65b,6t@18b
...found DEAD BUFFALO on spur east of BearPaw with 2xFish+Whale

both Barbs heading east
1050(9): 18g,86b,5t@21b
...Hut(107,5): HORDE! 4x Horse+Legion on Mtn! Chariot kills 1xHorse, VET

Barb Legion kills Chariot easily; Archer headed for 3F
Settler WoodLake
1000(10): 15g, 104b,6t@18b
WHAAA! - WoodLake reset on Fish instead of Whale!

Trade is 1 beaker away...
I leave RushBuying to next player.
There's a Hut on north island that could be popped this turn, but the Barb Horse might be able to reach you. The only thing left to pop it with is a Settler.

And the save:
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php...54_sa_b1000.sav

Last edited by Elephant on 30-04-2004 at 02:55

	30-04-2004 02:50									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

@#$%&*!! what am i doing wrong about attachments here?

	30-04-2004 03:20									#45
	Increase Your PM Length

1. Save game on your computer, making sure it has a file extension that Poly finds acceptable (like .sav or .zip).

2. In the "Attach File" section of the Post Reply screen, click on the "Browse" button.

3. Use the resulting pop-up box to find the file on your computer. Either double-click on the file once you find it, or higlhight it and click "Open."

4. That's it, you're done. When you click "Submit Reply" your attachment will be there (assuming it's Poly-legal).

	30-04-2004 03:30									#46
	Got spare money?

Bad joss, Elle. Trajanus's intuition concerning Barbs was all too accurate.

But 3forks can be saved. The key will be to sacrifice its warrior to delay the barbs while rushing a phalanx. That will require changing the sliders and moving all available fighters from nearby cities to 3F, including the nearby boat. Too bad there is no chariot handy.

The save was a bit blinky done as an upload. Here it is as an attachment.

Monk

Attachment: sa_b1000.sav
This has been downloaded 8 time(s).

	30-04-2004 16:27									#47
	Put an end to popups!

sorry about the chariot

	30-04-2004 18:29									#48
	750 BC Zipfile Enter the AD-FREE zone

Yeah, it would have come in handy against those barbs...

I played 10 turns last night. Managed to save Three Forks -- barely. Unfortunately, putting all available resources against that threat really slowed down other priorities.

Here's the save. Log soon.

Next player gets to finsih MPE and start negotiations with other civs...

Attachment: sa_750bc.zip
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).

	30-04-2004 18:59									#49
	The Turnlog Support Apolyton

-Jrabbit dons his Sacajawea garb and surveys the Monarchy. Hm. It's 1000 BC and we have 230,000 ppl, fewer than 10 cities. Not bad! Faders are at standard 30-70-0, netting 1- GP/turn and a new tech each 6 turns. Trade is imminent.

Also of note -- The #1 city is Rome -- size 4, held by Barbs!!

1000 BC -- Conclude turn by risking norther settler on hut, yielding a horsie. We also activate 3 warriors and move toward Three Forks, hiring Elvi in their wake. Minor rushing. Sliders moved to 70-30 tax setting to get 20 GP next turn.

ENTER.

975 BC
--Barb archers advance on 3 Forks.
--Northern barb horse moves to hill; settler skedaddles out of there!
--We discover TRADE and select Writing over horses.
--Noble Warrior attacks archer on grass and wins, makes Vet! Maybe we survive...

950 BC
--Phalanx, warrior arrive in 3 Forks. Another warrior goes to nearby swamp, preparing to attack and die.
--Phalanx rushed in 3 Forks (change build orders from Settler to Camel elsewhere).
--Rermaining barb archer kills phalanx, but is damaged.

925 BC
--Barb archer attacks and wins, but is deep in the red. Three Forks now size one.
--Warriors attack. One dies, but the other wins. we lose the barb king, but keep our city.
--Reset to 70% science.
--Point of Rock founded up north (fish, whale).

900 BC
--Killdeer completes our first camel, which heads toward our capital. We RB whatever rows we can toward more.
--Ships uncover north pole, a couple huts.

875 BC
--Population 320,000.

850 BC
--Hut = Adv. tribe of Raging Brook, complete with fish and wheat.
--Village of Running Bear founded. (This turns Pt. of Rocks' lone citizen red, so we rush the warrior there.)

825 BC
--Japanese capital moves to New York.
--Grudgingly start a temple.

800 BC
--Viking capital now in Uppsala.
--Disorder in Bear Paw, fixed.
--We discover the manly art of WRITING. We reject HB, Literacy, Masonry, Mysticism, and Warrior Code.
--Pottery selected.

775 BC
--Another camel complete, in Big Mound.
--Hut yields scrolls of ancient WARRIOR CODE.
--Complete the rushbuild of camel in Bear Paw

750 BC
--Egypt starts Pyramids.
--Camel from Bear Paw aimed at capital.
--Population now 410,000. MPE in just a couple more turns!!!

-Jrabbit resigns, gets out of Sacajawea drag, and returns to his cozy warren to watch the ensuing action.

	30-04-2004 19:05									#50
	Full PM-box? Change here!

A couple quick notes to successor --

1. We are at the breaking point for redfaces. Temples/HG must be acquired before more cities are planted.

2. There are several loose triremes out there, mostly without captains due to city foundings, hut popping, etc. Organizing our navy should be a priority.

3. MPE will afford you much fun -- embassies with 6 civs, so we expect tech acquisition and diplomacy to be the dominant skill demonstrated by out next Sacajawea.

4. With several off-continent cities and a decent fleet, we're going to have a nice 2-continent trading setup available.

5. But let's deal with that happiness issue... first things first!!

	30-04-2004 21:08									#51
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

JR,

Good show on saving 3forks. It could easily have resulted in the loss of two cities if that first warrior had not won. For such heroic defense of the Homeworld you deserve a Medal of Freedom!! Or something.

We are moving right along. Who wants to be next??

Monk

	30-04-2004 21:19									#52
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I am having trouble downloading the save. I'm sure it is my problem, but I can't figute out how to do it.

	30-04-2004 21:25									#53
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Here is the save unzipped, reworded, and windows arranged. (a and b time references go before the number in the date, in my version)

Hope this will help.

Monk

Attachment: sa_b750.sav
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	30-04-2004 22:33									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Good show on saving 3forks. It could easily have resulted in the loss of two cities if that first warrior had not won.

Always better to attack archers if all you have is a warrior. Barb archers defend as a 1 (despite what the charts say). So on equal terrain, the warrior has a decent shot.

Compared to a warrior defending against a 3 attack, it's no contest.

There was never a danger of losing 2 cities. We had enough warm bodies to put in their way until dips came available, trust me.

	01-05-2004 00:09									#55
	Inflate your Upload Space

By allowing barbs to get two attackers next to 3F where they could both attack the same turn, you rolled the dice. If the warrior attack had failed, with that Archer left in the green, 3F would have dusted away and Stoney Lake could have been next. In a test I did, the warrior won 4 of 10 trials and made vet once. That's pretty much expected in 1a -v- 1d attacks. Where the warrior fails, 3F dies, leaving 2 Barbs looking for more mischief.

"Never" is not the best word here, I think.

That is why I used the word "heroic" to describe the defense of 3F.

Monk

	01-05-2004 02:27									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I had rushed a Phalanx in Slim Buttes in 1100, but I was late in moving him eastward due to incredulity that neither Archer took any interest in SB, our capital. I thought, though, that it would have gotten to 3F early enough to fortify, permitting the Warrior and another from Stony Lake to try some counterattacking. A second Phalanx would then be rushed in 3F as a precaution.

I was far more upset with the outcome of the Hut on the northern island. But then, when I look at the terrain up there, I guess I wasnt going to get that Settler settled anyway. I was expecting the Forest, but not all the Tundra.

The biggest gripe was missing Trade by one stinkin beaker - after calculating too precisely.

	01-05-2004 03:24									#57
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Yep, I hate it when my calculations are messed with by the AI...

quote: The biggest gripe was missing Trade by one stinkin beaker - after calculating too precisely.

The game, however, is young, and we will have plenty more opportunities to "slowplay" our very formidable opponent.

Monk

	01-05-2004 03:37									#58
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Monk -- I always had 3 defenders in the 3F by the time the archers got there. (Always at least one fortified phx among them.) Rushed a 2nd phx per Ellie's note. With one archer on grassland, attacking out will assure that only the forested one will be trouble. A constant stream of warriors -- and one settler in this case -- from other cities does the trick. Note that one of those warriors takes to the swamp adjoining the forest, allowing an equal-footing attack on that guy (which is in fact how we finally offed him).

Never say never? True. But I never even had to use the trireme I had sent steaming back.

My confidence level was high.

Aren't you eligible for a turn by now?

	01-05-2004 04:08									#59
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Good analysis, JR. All is well.

I was hoping someone else might want to play. I''ll play soon if nobody else steps up.

Monk

	01-05-2004 08:04									#60
	Inflate your Upload Space

I will play now since no one else picked up the game. Back in a few.

Monk