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wervdon
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Im convinced. I think they mean it, and we should side with PAL.
I wouldn't rush to eliminate CDG pre-republic though. I think we should probally share the details of our deal with PAL, agree to share with them too, and try to talk them into avoiding contact with CDG for as long as possible to avoid rocking the boat.
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ormuzd
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It seems we have forgotten the debates from the previous month - to destroy CDG or not, to take their settler or not. There are so many people wanting alliane with them when the first poll was clearly to destroy CDG.
Just a note, nothing personal, no opinion towards any direction. This is my first ISDG and I'm trying to keep the pace of the game while diving more and more into the game.
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wervdon
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Well I was against rushing to war with CDG to start with too :P Not against killing them per say, just against trying to do it with 2 warriors.
And what changed my mind on PAL was their letter. Otherwise, I'd still think trusting them is too big of a risk. I just can't read that letter and see the tech gifts as accepted and think they are planning our demise at this point though.
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Kloreep
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of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Donegeal
First off...
Wow. They send us TWO TECH ACCEPTED based soley on trust? We CANNOT turn this down! |
quote:
Originally posted by Donegeal
OK.. here is a point to consider. We team up with PAL and take out CDG. Imagine now, what BAT and GWT would think. One team would be eliminated already with only one more needing to be done next. By the time this is done, they will have met each other. They would also know by this time that they are alone together on their continent. They are going to come to the conclusion that PAL and us ganged up on CDG. Now even if BAT and GWT had allied, do you think that that alliance would stand up knowing that the two best teams have already teamed up? Its going to cause all hell to break loose on the other continent. All hell breaking out is going to help our cause. |
They will not know that we have allied, only that at least one of the teams have taken out CDG.
Heck, for all they know, either Poly or PAL is on their own island, and CDG was stuck with one of the other two on their own continent.
They will know only one more elimination is needed, though. That might serve to break up any alliance they may have. On the other hand, the same can be said of us and PAL.
quote:
Originally posted by Beta
con - I appreciate the down-side of breaking the alliance. But I guess I look at it this way:
To PAL we say: We are friends for life.
To CDG we say: We are friends.
The commitments are clearly different, and I think PAL will understand the wisdom of the approach. |
Again, there's no need to take out CDG ultra-early. Their research can be useful up until the point we do.
quote:
Originally posted by Beta
In response to Togas, I agree that there may be a smaller chance of our three way alliance lasting to the end of the game, but I say we should give it a chance, at least for the early game tech benefit we can derive from it. |
I'm not so sure about this. I'm not sure if there's enough land for us long-term with CDG there. I think we'll be eliminating them eventually; probably pre-Feudalism if we can swing it. Unless they have no iron, in which case Invention becomes the deadline.
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Kloreep
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of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by conmcb25
quote:
Originally posted by Beta
con - I appreciate the down-side of breaking the alliance. But I guess I look at it this way:
To PAL we say: We are friends for life.
To CDG we say: We are friends.
The commitments are clearly different, and I think PAL will understand the wisdom of the approach. |
Beta its still breaking an alliance and again Im really not convinced this is something I want to take to the other game. Im worried we are trying to get a bit too clever here. This could backlash on us.
quote:
Originally posted by Beta
In response to Togas, I agree that there may be a smaller chance of our three way alliance lasting to the end of the game, but I say we should give it a chance, at least for the early game tech benefit we can derive from it. |
We can continue to get an early game benefit from extending the NAP and completing our tech agreement. It wont be until that time until we are ready to make a move anyway. I dont want to make a promise to someone and then break it. Its just not the Apolyton way. |
I agree with con here. We can accomplish our goals of milking CDG's research through tech deals and NAPs without signing a full alliance. The trick will be stringing them along as long as possible, and keeping them from realizing we're going to attack after the deals expire as long as possible.
quote:
Originally posted by conmcb25
And its an elimination game, ALL of us will be looking over our shoulder in that kind of an arrangement wondering who is going to fall out and break the allaince.
If we team up with PAL and commit to a long term relationship, we have a clear and common goal.
Eliminate one CIV here (common goal) and then prepare to take the other two on to advance if they dont take care of the job for us. (Common goal) We move forward together to the next game with strong ties and a strong friendship. |
I think we may be treating PAL as too much of a silver ally.
Remember, GCA thought Poly was on its side - or at least peaceful - up until the MIs crossed the border. They thought they had poly in their pocket and payed the price of their empire for it. Once CDG is gone, we're going to have to be looking over our shoulders the rest of the game. Such is the cost of elimination rules...
Look at it this way. I've seen speculation that even if the Germans and French ally, one would be willing to backstab the other with support from us and PAL. What's to stop PAL from attacking us down the road if they receive aid from the Germans and the French?
quote:
Originally posted by conmcb25
No offense to CDG but so far I dont see any strategic thinking, and there start has been relatively mediocre.
Im not convinced they are the guys to hitch our wagon too.
But in there defense I am convinced we at least owe it to them not to backstab them by breaking an alliance. |
Agreed.
quote:
Originally posted by wervdon
I wouldn't rush to eliminate CDG pre-republic though. I think we should probally share the details of our deal with PAL, agree to share with them too, and try to talk them into avoiding contact with CDG for as long as possible to avoid rocking the boat. |
Very good idea... if CDG doesn't know PAL is around, they won't be worried about 2 on 1, and we can drop hints that we want to make sure we have at least 1 tech partner.
However, I doubt PAL would agree to something as big as this this early on in our relationship. Also, I'm sure a CDG warrior or Curragh will find PAL eventually if PAL doesn't find them.
quote:
Originally posted by ormuzd
It seems we have forgotten the debates from the previous month - to destroy CDG or not, to take their settler or not. There are so many people wanting alliane with them when the first poll was clearly to destroy CDG.
Just a note, nothing personal, no opinion towards any direction. This is my first ISDG and I'm trying to keep the pace of the game while diving more and more into the game. |
 Good point, a lot of people really have shifted.
As wervdon says, though, we were talking about attacking with 2 warriors before. Now we're talking about attacking 2 on 1 with an ally once both of us have had a chance to build up.
Also, before, we didn't know if there was any other civ around to help us research. Now we know we'll have PAL even if CDG is gone.
Last edited by Kloreep on 29-04-2004 at 02:32
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wervdon
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quote:
How are you leaning in reguards to "taking out CGN with PAL" vs "The three way alliance"?
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Difficult question, I don't think I have an opinion yet really.
I see at least 3 things to consider though:
1) Would PAL (or CDG which matters a heck of alot less at this point) even want to do that?
2) Is it even practical?
3) What would it do to our reputation if we are forced by the situation to take out CDG (for example if GWT conquers their continent and manages to stalemate all invasion attempts)
Im indifferent if the answers to those are:
Yes, Yes, and won't happen don't worry.
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Krill
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On a cold wet rock, in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.
Dec 2003
time: 05:35
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quote:
How are you leaning in reguards to "taking out CGN with PAL" vs "The three way alliance"? |
if we went to a three way alliance, the berserkers are going to rip the foreigners to shreds. We could send recon to find them, and without their knowing build up our strengh.
We should be ahead in tech, with 50% more cores than them, and should have better armies. The only problem is the Rider, but if we plan the attack right (and we need CDG to attack the city, gift it to us/PAL, and we go and attack them before they have their turn.) I do not know if that is possible, because of the turn order, but it is a (work-in-progress) plan.
I would prefer to wait, though, and offer that solution to PAL. They are bending over backwards for us, so we should show that we appriciate their stance and support. If they like the idea, we can work on it, but they have to find CDG first, because we will not break the game rules.
To answer the above point #2, it might not be practical, but it would make an invasion of the other continent lands easier, with berserkers.
I think we need Theseus for this plan to work perfectly.
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wervdon
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Heh I find it a tad ironic that we are worried about French and Germans getting along so well 
Seriously, seeing the Germans play in the PtW ISDG, I dont think we have to worry about it. Equal alliances just doesn't seem to be their MO.
And after some more thought: I think if we ally with PAL (and it sounds like we will), we should just present the CDG situation to them like this:
1) Tell them honestly where CDG is and what our arrangements with them are. Basically lay it all out, including their weak position, etc.
2) Explain that we want to finish the republic deal, but will gladly share the techs equally with our game long alliance partners.
3) Give them a choice: 3 way alliance with the goal of wiping out both over seas civs, or eliminating CDG post-republic.
4) If they think its better to knock CDG out, then ask them avoid contact for as long as possible, and to not let on our allied status once they do have contact, since otherwise the tech deal which benefits us both will likely fall through.
And obviously, we should never put ourselves in a position where we are trusting our survival entirely on another teams benevolence towards us. No matter who we ally with.
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Beta
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Prowling in a PBEM near you!
Nov 2002
time: 00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by wervdon
Heh I find it a tad ironic that we are worried about French and Germans getting along so well
Seriously, seeing the Germans play in the PtW ISDG, I dont think we have to worry about it. Equal alliances just doesn't seem to be their MO.
And after some more thought: I think if we ally with PAL (and it sounds like we will), we should just present the CDG situation to them like this:
1) Tell them honestly where CDG is and what our arrangements with them are. Basically lay it all out, including their weak position, etc.
2) Explain that we want to finish the republic deal, but will gladly share the techs equally with our game long alliance partners.
3) Give them a choice: 3 way alliance with the goal of wiping out both over seas civs, or eliminating CDG post-republic.
4) If they think its better to knock CDG out, then ask them avoid contact for as long as possible, and to not let on our allied status once they do have contact, since otherwise the tech deal which benefits us both will likely fall through.
And obviously, we should never put ourselves in a position where we are trusting our survival entirely on another teams benevolence towards us. No matter who we ally with. |
I concur.
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28-04-2004 17:03
Im just an illiterate engineer by day and yesterday I couldn't spell enginear 
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