29-04-2004 05:09									#61
	Re: Foriegn Affairs- PAL Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 ...and more importantly I have been working non stop on my relationship with F-P since November hoping this day would come. Now is the time to capitolize on that relationship.

Eh. I still take that with a grain of salt. I have a great frienship with MasterZen yet I'll still backstab him in a PBEM. And likewise. Hell, I think because we have such good frienships outside of the civ world, it makes it EASIER to backstab the other.

F-P is one I'd be worried about though. He knows how to spot any weakness and can capitalize on it quickly. If we are in a weak position, he won't think twice about rolling over us, friend or not.

Just keep that in mind throughout our affairs with him.

	29-04-2004 05:26									#62
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I agree with WB, and this is the reason for my above back-and-forth with con. As con put it in another thread: this is a cutthroat elimination game. Nothing personal, but if a team can do something to advance its chances, it will.

	29-04-2004 06:13									#63
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by BigFree Ah, ok then... We must kill CDG!!!

Now this is the BF I know and Love

quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit Eh. I still take that with a grain of salt. I have a great frienship with MasterZen yet I'll still backstab him in a PBEM. And likewise. Hell, I think because we have such good frienships outside of the civ world, it makes it EASIER to backstab the other. F-P is one I'd be worried about though. He knows how to spot any weakness and can capitalize on it quickly. If we are in a weak position, he won't think twice about rolling over us, friend or not. Just keep that in mind throughout our affairs with him.

Good point WB but a PBEM is different. The stakes are a lot higher in this one. In a PBEM you and MZ know you can screw each other and there is no real repurcussions. In this one you could lose a valuable long term ally AND get a bad diplo rap wrap for the follow on game and go to the follow on game with no friends (Germans and French)

With that being said I dont think we should let down our guard either. And Ill bet PAL will be looking behind there backs for sometime to come as well. Thats why we have to build trust.

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep I agree with WB, and this is the reason for my above back-and-forth with con. As con put it in another thread: this is a cutthroat elimination game. Nothing personal, but if a team can do something to advance its chances, it will.

Sure it will but stabing us in the back after a fruitfull allaince isn't exactly the way to enter the next game.

If all PAL wanted to do was eliminate BOTH CIV's on this continent then why not team up with the weaker one (CDG) to eliminate the stronger one (US) and then pick off CDG at there leisure, kind of like we were discussing earlier.

Again Im NOT going to let down my guard, but I really think hooking up with them and getting rid of CDG is the way to go.

Build that trust along the way, and kick ass in the next game.

Thats when I think we have to really worry, as the 6 CIV;s drop to 4 or 3. Then Ill REALLY start worrying

	29-04-2004 20:39									#64
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Have do we know CDG did not send their curragh north and did not already meet PAL? Have we seen a curragh? I guess no. Where could it be? to the north (of course, if there is a curragh is not sure but what did they do in the first turns if not a curagh?)

	29-04-2004 21:06									#65
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by ormuzd Have do we know CDG did not send their curragh north and did not already meet PAL? Have we seen a curragh? I guess no. Where could it be? to the north (of course, if there is a curragh is not sure but what did they do in the first turns if not a curagh?)

Well we are guessing they built a curragh, we just dont know where it went. Its possible since we initially told them we were to the north, that they sent it along the south coast and since we are inland we just did not see it.

We are also guessing they have not met PAL because CDG and PAL have not traded techs. We knew that because we just traded a tech that CDG gave us (in trade) to PAL. So we are assuming if they met already they would have done a tech trade which they did not.

So were did that curragh go? Your guess is as good as mine and 15 or 20 others guys in this forum

Thats the way intelligence goes in these games ( and a lot like in reral life) you get a bunch of facts and information and try to guess your way to the current situation.

But that essentially is all it is, a bunch of educated guesses.

	30-04-2004 09:42									#66
	Suffering from ads?

After the chat between Vander and CDG I'm almost sure they didn't meat each other

	30-04-2004 17:35									#67
	Increase Your PM Length

Actually, they told us they built a Curragh. When we met them they said that it was going along the southern coast.

	30-04-2004 19:14									#68
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

curragh, warrior and settler
Does this mean they have 0.5 (probably 1 already) military units/city?

	01-05-2004 16:20									#69
	Put an end to popups!

I had a brief chat with PAL last night, mostly about Gamespy, and my lack of success getting into that chat room.

But the main thing is PAL is also researching Iron Working.

I told F-P about the possibility of one team abandoning th research to research something else, and then the two teams just swap those techs straight up.

F-P said he would bring it up and hopefully we can discuss in chat tonight.

	02-05-2004 09:35									#70
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Log of chat with PAL is in the correspondance thread.

A summary is coming from GK, so don't read through that beast unless you want to.

	02-05-2004 10:01									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Here is a basic summary of the chat we had with PAL:

Poly team: Con, GK and Kloreep
PAL: FP, Mo_D, Heroic_GC, and Lord_phan who ticked off FP so was kicked out early in the chat.

Long chat – 3 hours.

They are genuine in that they want to be friends. They see us as their biggest threat, and they want to eliminate that in this game. They know that if we tangle with each other, it will be very, very, bloody, and that there may not be a winner.

We disclosed our deal regarding republic (basically all the details) and discussed many variations of tech deals we can make with them. It worked out that the deal proposed and is on the table for discussion is: we share and share alike. Each team will coordinate and trade techs through the game (including incorporating the republic deal with CGD that we have) so that the techs costs of research are roughly equal and are shared.

We (I mean I) virtually told them we have ivory (came as close as one could without actually saying it, so they know) and they confirmed that they do not, nor did they see us gaining zeus as a major obstacle. Actually, they seamed to think it was a good thing that if we were allied, one of us having it was a good thing.

One point they are adamant about is killing off CDG. We actually had to work a long time at it to let them agree to us keeping our republic deal (they want us to archer rush them ASAP I think, breaking our trade agreement), but we ended up going with a “we enter a cold war, with no treaties made with them without each team agreeing”. They really want them dead edit by con, actually they wanted the tech dealing stopped before they got map makingmaprior to them gaining map making and gaining access to the other teams, but may (with convincing) delay til we get zeus on line and enter the next age. We discussed the fact that we will have to discuss wonders with them. They hinted that they were planning on one already (but didn’t say which one).

They are in the process of collecting barbs and converting them into workers with their UU (very good strat btw), and are requesting we do not go further north than an isthmus that is near meeting mountain. They will continue south to meet up with CDG, but will not go west towards our position.

Time is of the essence with these people. Make no mistake about that. They play fast and hard, and do NOT pause to worry about all the little things. The little things include such items as tech points not being 100% equal. We must make decisions with these people fast. I know it is our standard policy to delay and hold things up, making decisions only when we have to. That will not be possible with these folks. They will not accept that.

Thus the time frame on making a decision with them regarding alliance. We either sign up now, or become what those of us in the chat perceived as being enemies. Not neutrals, enemies. You see, in my opinion, they will act that if we are not friends, we are enemies.

They research Iron working in 5 turns. They know that we are researching it and are 9 turns away. If we ally with them, we change techs. We have until they are ready to gift us IW to make the decision. It is all tied together, so if we do not ally with them they do not give us IW. If we change, and do not ally, we loose research. If we ally, and if we do not change soon, we just hurt ourselves. [b]WE MUST MAKE A DECISION WITHIN THE NEXT 5 GAME TURNS[/]. And to get that much time took what almost amounted to begging on our part. They are fast movers, not used to the pace of pbem.

As everybody knows, I was the one who helped bring about the deal with CDG, helped start the peace thread in our forum (although I wouldn’t have minded a good sneak attack if it had a chance of success), and was for sticking with CDG and killing off PAL as soon as possible. The discussions in this chat, along with the previous formal and informal diplomacy, have changed my mind. I am now of the opinion that making an ally of PAL is to our best benefit in this game.

--GK, MOI

Last edited by conmcb25 on 02-05-2004 at 10:55

	02-05-2004 10:59									#72
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I concur with GK in his assessment.

They pretty much figured out its CDG.

They think CDG is a loose cannon. And they dont want the loose cannon to get berzerkers.

At first they were hoping we had no deal with them and could start a "Cold War" now. It took a lot of talking to agree to us finishing the tech deal.

You all know my feelings on this. I think an alliance with PAL is the way to go.

But if we do it we are going to have to start thinking differently.

Are we up to the task? I think so, so lets just do it.

	02-05-2004 11:07									#73
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Now before the penny pinchers have an out cry here and say we have to balance the techs points this is what I got from the CDG diplo discussion thread:

This is our republic deal with CDG and who gets what, red is added by me, and its late, Im tired and I may have missed something, but this is what I saw:

Techs given to CDG = IW, Pottery, Philosophy, Republic =42
Techs given to Poly = Writing, CoL=18

Now I maybe missing something here BUT it doesn't look very equal to me.

If we agree to this plan with PAL we have to NOT give republic to CDG. Even if we dont agree with PAL Republic should be renegotiated.

Even if its at a discount.

	02-05-2004 11:12									#74
	Support Apolyton

I thinnk we should ally wit hthem if we can trust them. I mean alliance if we are sure they will not betray us.

	02-05-2004 11:13									#75
	Support Apolyton

in summary

if we snooze we will lose.

Thats my take

If we ***** foot around and try to delay a deal or try to tell them to wait and lets see what develops my guess is due to the nature of this team they will work a deal with CDG, and make no mistake, I think CDG would welcome them with open arms.

And if we dont go with PAL, I see a choke in our very near future. They see us as the bigger threat, if we dont ally we become the enemy. They WILL choke us at least to start. So its ally or all bets are off. Thats my take and I think the two guys in chat with me Kloreep and GK will agree.

F-P knows all he has to do is screw up one settler and we are screwed.

Im done talking, I need sleep bad

	02-05-2004 11:15									#76
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by ormuzd I thinnk we should ally wit hthem if we can trust them. I mean alliance if we are sure they will not betray us.

Read the chat, either F-P was sincere or a very good liar.

	02-05-2004 11:46									#77
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Ok some advice

Read the chat before you make a deicsion. I know its long but it will reaally give you a good insight into how PAL thinks.

Deciding to do an alliance with them or not is going to be a pretty big decision for us.

It did for me anyway.

Im sure we will poll this sometime this week.

Good night all

	02-05-2004 12:30									#78
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I haven't read the chat yet, but I'm going to put my 2 cents into this.

PAL is basically a group of people who play MP ALL of the time.
These people are used to the fast pace of MP play
Alliances are made at the drop of a hat and you don't have time to d*cker over the price of a deal. If you don't make the deal, now, you aren;t working together. If your not working together, your in the way and have to be removed. Plain and simple.

I expect that the sooner that we get back to PAL about this deal, which, IMHO we should seriously consider, the better that they will deal with us.

Now, with that said, we need to make sure that we work our FAM with CDG with all of that in mind. CDG will want an extension on our tech deal, as if come closer to completion. This will also entail stonewalling them with reguard to renegotiating our NAP.

It would seem, that PAL wants to get to round 2 ASAP and if your not working with them, on that goal, then they will do whatever it takes to make sure that you don;t make it, even if it keeps them from getting there, too.

E_T

	02-05-2004 12:52									#79
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

When we recieved that letter from PAL, I became nervous. It was well written and very diplomatic. For a second there I was actually worried that we may have underestimated PAL's diplo skills. The log of the chat has changed my mind. The MP culture does not fit into PBEM culture. They are going to be very difficult to handle diplomaticly no matter who they run up against. This amazing sense of urgentcy just doesn't cut it. It is now my bet that when PAL is in the next game, they will be very hard pressed to find friends with the type of attitude they are presenting here. Imagine how a chat between them and GWT would go. They would be at war in about 5 minutes. This is a very positive sign.

I support the *** for tat tech deal but more importantly, I support the game long alliance.

With PAL at our side, CDG is a road bump. We then combine to finish the game by looking for GWT and crushing them. I do not feel we need to worry (too much) about a backstab by them as even if they manage to take us out, their reputaion will be so smeared that they would not stand a chance in the finals.

	02-05-2004 13:34									#80
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

This does have a lot of Implications for the next game. I imagine that PAL is chomping at the bit to go against the other Ladder team and figures that they will also make it to the next round.

Now, as for the next game, I DON'T want to see any talk about our possible alliance extending to the next game. Situations there WILL be different and there is NO way to keep an alliance together over that time frame. We work on one game at a time....

But, having us in their good graces could help out, but then, the Banana only knows about that.....

E_T

	02-05-2004 14:45									#81
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I don't think that anybody is thinking that an alliance here will carry over to the next game. When we talk about the next game, its is just in that there have been "very positive past relationships".

	02-05-2004 16:13									#82
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Wasn't the idea behind Philosophy research to get a GL? (scientific leader or whatever it is - I have never seen one). I'm asking because PAL proposed to research Philosophy for us

	02-05-2004 16:23									#83
	Inflate your Upload Space

yes they did, but it didn't go anywhere.

	02-05-2004 18:57									#84
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Donegeal I don't think that anybody is thinking that an alliance here will carry over to the next game. When we talk about the next game, its is just in that there have been "very positive past relationships".

DITTO
There has been talk about a strong friendship into the second game, but I think we all know taking an alliance there is just if nothing else in practical.

What if its another Continents game and we are on two different continents?

PAL knows that as well E-T, F-P is a pretty sharp guy, as you. know.

	02-05-2004 19:10									#85
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Donegeal The MP culture does not fit into PBEM culture. They are going to be very difficult to handle diplomaticly no matter who they run up against. This amazing sense of urgentcy just doesn't cut it.

I dont agree here. These statements imply that the two cultures can not work together.

I disagree. It wont be easy but I believe it can be done.

Whats the matter with a sense of urgency? Just look at the way they have proposed things from a very strategic geopolitical veiw point. Is there anything they said about Grand Strategy that you really disagree with?

They have made there analysis, they know where THEY want to go in this game. So they go out and they try to get it.

We on the other hand do not have that, we are still debating, and we have entered into a long term complicated tech deal with out really knowing where we want to go in this game.

You say a sense of urgency doesn't cut it. I say we need more of a sense of urgency around here.

Now do I see us becoming like PAL, well no.

But what Id like to see is us meeting them half way.

They have already met us half way. They were hoping there was no deal with CDG, and we could begin to choke them NOW.

I got them talked into going along with a tech trade where we wont screw up the deal with CDG, BUT just remember from there viewpoint every tech we give to CDG, moves them closer and closer to Berzerkers, every tech we give them makes CDG a tougher target to take out.

THATS HOW PAL LOOKS AT THIS.

I with some help from FP got them to comprimise on this. Im asking us to expand the way we think and meet them half way.

The diplomacy is not going to be easy, but not because they are unreasonable. They have already demonstrated there reasonability with the comprimise on the tech trade.

Diplomacy will be difficult because we have two different CIV Playing cultures. If we can meet them halfway though I believe we can work those issues out.

Look at this team this way. Either they are your best friend or your worst enemy. Thats the way they do business.

	02-05-2004 19:49									#86
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Look at this team this way. Either they are your best friend or your worst enemy. Thats the way they do business.

I agree 110%. There style of play is different, but is not incompatable with our style. We have a grand opportunity here, and I say it is a good one to take.

	02-05-2004 23:17									#87
	Increase the size of your Attachments

What is wrong here? They make 1, 2, 5 proposals and we have our polls for 3 days. After this the agreement is completed.

	02-05-2004 23:21									#88
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by ormuzd What is wrong here? They make 1, 2, 5 proposals and we have our polls for 3 days. After this the agreement is completed.

I agree we need to toss around what to put in polls and probably start getting those up tomorrow.

3 days sounds good, gives enough time to vote and decide so we can give PAL and answer one way or the other.

	03-05-2004 00:08									#89
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Now before the penny pinchers have an out cry here and say we have to balance the techs points this is what I got from the CDG diplo discussion thread: This is our republic deal with CDG and who gets what, red is added by me, and its late, Im tired and I may have missed something, but this is what I saw: Techs given to CDG = IW, Pottery, Philosophy, Republic =42 Techs given to Poly = Writing, CoL=18 Now I maybe missing something here BUT it doesn't look very equal to me. If we agree to this plan with PAL we have to NOT give republic to CDG. Even if we dont agree with PAL Republic should be renegotiated. Even if its at a discount.

Then we might as well screw CDG over as much as we can. Rep is part of the agreement; and I believe the idea is that since either one of us could be the one going for Philo, we share in the discovery of Rep as the free tech equally.

And I don't think there's much of a downside to giving them Rep if we're going to be stunting, and ultimately killing, them anyway. The only danger is them finding one of the other civs and handing them Rep to spite us.

Edit: Thinking about it from the PoV of the possibility of them getting Pikes, giving them Philosophy is more dangerous to us than giving them Rep.

	03-05-2004 00:19									#90
	Suffering from ads?

Actually republic should be out of the equation - we are working together for it and we will get it for free.