30-06-2004 09:35									#211
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Me? I'm hanging out, mostly at the Alpha Centauri DG with the Morgan team (I'm CPO!) But that doesn't take up all that much of my time. If I am needed, I will step up to the plate.

	13-07-2004 08:41									#212
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quote: Greetings to our Apolytonian Brothers! Here is the save and a few brief bits of information as well - You may expect Mapmaking in 4 turns. Have you anything interesting of your own? We are somewhat concerned and worried with the growing size of Ur and the possibilities as to what it may be constructing. If your sages and scriers should come across any useful information in that regard, we would be quite grateful. We are somewhat ....surprised and bemused.... that CDG still remains a 2-city empire. We hope that your own expansion is somewhat more bountiful. Has CDG experienced any drops in size that you can see? (As you recall, we cannot tell the size of the city you say is called Minnesota.) We are making a move towards the ivory of that area in the relatively near future and are wondering if we may face a little competition. Our progress to our joint objective goes well! We hope the same can be said for you. If anything can be done by the mighty nation of PAL for their excellent and stalwart APO brothers, please do not hesitate to contact us. We hope your warrior has enjoyed his tour of our lands, and the supply of the finest bananas we have left for him in his travels. "Jolly Old Saint Grog" is now remembered quite fondly in many PAL townships as he now heads north back to what our people say is his icy home, filled with many presents.

If you saw the Turn 59 thread, you'd know that's the message we got from F-P with that save. A response should be drafted.

	13-07-2004 08:42									#213
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Lemme find out whats going on with Vander first. Last I heard he wanted to lurk for a while since his "return". Because quite frankly if we need an ambassador for both, I would prefer you handle CDG. Ill get back to you.

Con? Earth to Con?

	13-07-2004 09:17									#214
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To propose a reply...

quote: Hail to our gracious allies, the Ladderites! You are not the only ones with a little bit of information to share. We currently possess Mathematics, if you are interested in recieving it. Additionally, we'll have researched Philosophy in about ten turns. As for Ur, well, we know about as much as you. It's probable that they labor on some sort of Great Wonder. CDG has in fact been active. We recently noticed a drop of one pop in Zarigueya, and two in Minnesota. They founded a new city last turn, south of Minnesota, named Possumopolis (and I thought we had boring city names...). We are always glad to hear from our northerly neighbors, the grand People's Army. Please, keep in touch!

	13-07-2004 09:56									#215
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I'd like to add that their frequent greetings and little tidbits of info that come with the save are always welcomed and often entertain.

At least they do me, and since I tend to see them first that should count for SOMEthing.

	13-07-2004 11:27									#216
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If Con doesn't send something by tomorrow afternoon, let's PLEASE send OctX's draft to them.

--Togas

p.s. I STILL don't have the save I'm glad that WIA got it and posted it for us.

	13-07-2004 12:06									#217
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That reminds me - those saves won't be there forever... will need to clean out my upload account at some point. But I store all of them on two computers anyway, so they can always be asked for.

	13-07-2004 17:58									#218
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Ill try and get this sent this evening. Ill add the entertainment part.

Work is gonna be hell today and tomorrow. I should be able to do this sometime this evening (USA Time)

	13-07-2004 21:09									#219
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WIA, could we ask Markos to host a zip file on 'Poly with all of the PAST turns, so that you only need to host the new turn.

Since we are adding traffic to the site with our attempts to win the game (and thus all of the glory that comes with it...), it seems fair...

	13-07-2004 22:19									#220
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I've already made a zip of the first 50 turns, uploaded, and put a link in the InfoCenter. Check it out if you want old saves.

	14-07-2004 04:41									#221
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Potential reply to the Ladderites:

quote: Hail to our gracious allies, the Ladderites! You are not the only ones with a little bit of information to share. We currently possess Mathematics, if you are interested in recieving it. Additionally, we'll have researched Philosophy in about ten turns. As for Ur, well, we know about as much as you. It's probable that they labor on some sort of Great Wonder. Our previous intell from CDG that I believe we shared with you during our "Grand Chat" a few months back is that they are or were planning on the "Great Lighthouse Wonder". We dont know that for a fact but that would be our best "guess". This of course bodes well for our "Evil Plan" since as you know sheilds spent on wonder building mean sheilds not spent on military units or REX for that matter. (Evil Laugh) CDG has in fact been active. We recently noticed a drop of one pop in Zarigueya, and two in Minnesota. They founded a new city last turn, south of Minnesota, named Possumopolis (and I thought we had boring city names...). We are always glad to hear from our northerly neighbors, the grand People's Army. Please, keep in touch! By the way I wanted to share with you the fact that our team really appreciates your "little notes" included with the save. It does much to raise the spirits of the team. I for one open every one of emails hoping for a note, whether I intend to look at the save that turn or not As usual great talking to you guys. conmcb25 Foreign Affairs Minister and Ambassador to PAL for Apolyton

I embellished a bit to contribute to the levity. Take a look and Im going to send tonight from home. Im sending in about three hours from this post so speak or forever hold your peace

	14-07-2004 05:45									#222
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We likely won't need MM soon, so they shouldn't bother sending it.

Also, I'd like to see us mention we think it might be good for them to do the same with Math (they're building a horse force, so they shouldn't have much use for cats) unless they want it for some reason.

	14-07-2004 05:58									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep We likely won't need MM soon, so they shouldn't bother sending it. Also, I'd like to see us mention we think it might be good for them to do the same with Math (they're building a horse force, so they shouldn't have much use for cats) unless they want it for some reason.

I think we need a larger team discussion on this and then a discussion about techs in general with PAL.

Our agreement is to share techs period. The last time we tried to get "cute" (for lack of a better term) with PAL on not giving each other techs, it led to a misunderstanding and possibly a rift in the alliance. If anything I say we do the tech swap this time. Then if you want we can talk with them about with holding techs and why we want to do so. The only reason right now I can think of is being able to help along the smoke screen for CDG. Which they (PAL) are nuetral at best on anyway.

Until we meet the CIVs from the "other continent", I would recommend against for the sake of building trust in the alliance. But I would like to hear from the rest of the team, and it could certainly be a topic of a chat. Which we have not had in a while and it maybe time to do so anyway, just to keep "in touch".

	14-07-2004 06:01									#224
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Con, what about the ambassador position?

	14-07-2004 06:17									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master Con, what about the ambassador position?

Read the PM I sent you within the last hour or so

	14-07-2004 06:28									#226
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Our agreement is to share techs period. The last time we tried to get "cute" (for lack of a better term) with PAL on not giving each other techs, it led to a misunderstanding and possibly a rift in the alliance. If anything I say we do the tech swap this time. Then if you want we can talk with them about with holding techs and why we want to do so. The only reason right now I can think of is being able to help along the smoke screen for CDG. Which they (PAL) are nuetral at best on anyway.

They may be neutral, but I and possibly we are not. I think we should bring it up with them. If they do want it nevertheless, go ahead and give it to them; it's not worth arguing over, and it shouldn't be as much of a risk as us getting MM.

I do think we should definitely delay us getting MM. I imagine CDG will be researching that next after CoL, and if they discover it before the attack, seeing that PAL has it but we don't just might help keep the smoke screen up. The team seems to agree with this from the poll.

	14-07-2004 07:08									#227
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Read the PM I sent you within the last hour or so

That might help.

	14-07-2004 08:13									#228
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quote: By the way I wanted to share with you the fact that our team really appreciates your "little notes" included with the save. It does much to raise the spirits of the team. I for one open every one of emails hoping for a note, whether I intend to look at the save that turn or not

I'm not going to strongly object to this sort of asskissing, but I think it's pretty transparent. Not really my sort of thing.

And I do not agree with the paranoia about "If we don't give them all our techs immediately they will hate us." It wasn't a big deal last time. We straightened it out. The fact of the matter is that they're smart enough to understand why we're keeping up the CDG smokescreen ... but the like to act like they're not to take advantage of those of us on this team who fear them.

We don't need Mapmaking now. It serves no point. When CDG gets it and sees that everyone already has it, they'll know something is up. We can afford not to trade everything away during the next 30-40 turns, can't we? Keeping CDG in the dark is worth whatever immature tension or suspicion PAL hints at us ... and frankly, having an ally who's that damn suspicious means that they're not really your ally. A paranoid ally is paranoid because he doesn't trust you ... and he doesn't trust you because he's not trustworthy himself.

In Diplomacy, I have had more allies stab me in the back (or try to) shortly following a mood shift where they became irrationally paranoid. That mood shift was likely caused by them worrying that I would discover their plans. Unfortunately for them, by showing additional worry, emotionality, or paranoia, they showed me that there was a change coming in our relationship, and their own fears sold them down the river.

--Togas

	14-07-2004 13:24									#229
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quote: Originally posted by Togas I'm not going to strongly object to this sort of asskissing, but I think it's pretty transparent. Not really my sort of thing.

Although I am certainly of the opinion we should be operating with PAL more on their level - the player level, than with a process that for no reason prevents us from showing some enthusiasm, emotion or friendliness, I agree that what is written here is perhaps a little strong. Maybe this shouldn't be inlcuded in such a document, but instead be mentioned offhand in an informal chat or somesuch?

quote: And I do not agree with the paranoia about "If we don't give them all our techs immediately they will hate us." It wasn't a big deal last time. We straightened it out. The fact of the matter is that they're smart enough to understand why we're keeping up the CDG smokescreen ... but the like to act like they're not to take advantage of those of us on this team who fear them.

Again, I agree, but we must keep talking to them. We should tell them thanks for the offer, but we have no great need for MM right now, and think perhaps it would be best to keep it in reserve until we do want it, as that way it will be more expensive for CDG, and it will not tip them off that we are working with PAL so closely. Same with Maths, but if they want it lots, then we should give it to them because that's what we agreed to. Keep the seemingly deep-seated distrust in line with what the team voted for us to honour. I'm content enough if we are not wanting to give over an advantage because it will harm us in some way, but unless there is a bloody good reason we should be talking as openly as practicable about our actions, decisions and thoughts. If we stop talking to PAL openly (even if we are admitting the team decided not to discuss an issue with them for some reason) then the paranoia is fully justified.

The order of importance goes:

1. Team's best interests (will only contradict 2. in extreme situations)
2. Sticking to the Constitution/rules we have so far
3. The Alliance with PAL.

All of these three things are extremely important and must be kept in mind as such, and in that order.

	29-07-2004 23:36									#230
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As a note, I emailed F-P asking him to cc me, OctX, and Kloreep when he sends our team the save ... as it seems that our team email server isn't working correctly. He wrote back:

quote: No problem, I can CC the lot of you- send me their emails (Oct, Kloreep) and I'll just make an address book listing for "Apolyton Writ Large" and send it to all of you in one fell swoop. Sometime in the semi-near future, we should sit down and chat about life post-CDG, borders and so on. Our war preparations are now in full swing and we're planting cities/making plans for after the fall of CDG - we'd like to not waste any time/effort/resources where we might not need to. Nothing dire or serious, just taking care of odds and ends; figure out our post-CDG strategies, and so on, or at least kick ideas around about it. No rush. Later.

I'll send him those email addys, but the bigger issue is one that we should begin to discuss. When I get home this evening I'll try to post some wide shots of our continent. We should start interally with a discussion on where to draw the borders post CDG.

--Togas

	30-07-2004 00:38									#231
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Yep I concur

This should be our last discussion topic after the staus we know on CDG and the possibility of tech deals beyond the Republic deal with CDG.

Ill start the ball rolling with F-P BUT it sounds like we need another chat with the pertinent folks from both teams, dont you think?

On division of the continent, the starting point should be equal division of tiles more or less is my thinking. That will serve two purposes, a fair deal for us. And if they readily agree, I think it may buy them some degree of trust beyond what this team already has.

And no Im not advocating complete trust, but continueing to further build the bond is not a bad idea.

	30-07-2004 02:24									#232
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We need to be sure that if PAL has equal tiles on this continent they don;t have a huge advantage with the TYPE of tiles. They've got a lot of rivers and floodplains from what I have seen so far, and that should be taken into account.

	30-07-2004 02:57									#233
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Maybe we could divide it by the amount of goods?

	30-07-2004 19:03									#234
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A new chat with PAL is up in the FA topped thread.

They were (or at least F-P was) surprised we ere considering trading techs with CDG post Republic deal.

I gave it my best shot trying to convince them it was a good idea.

But I just want to remind you all, this is the MP world we are dealing with. If they would have gotten there way we would have been choking CDG long before this. And in some respects personally, I think we should consider that approach post Republic.

I understand the downsides, not as much tech and they will start military preps.

But the upside is we dont have to worry about the charade any longer, and we can pounce on them while they are runted and continue to ensure they stay runted.

There is two sides to this. We need to hear comments from the team.

Im on the side of choking em as soon as the deal is done and as soon as we can get units over there.
Thats my personal opinion.

Comments????

	30-07-2004 20:20									#235
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 A new chat with PAL is up in the FA topped thread. They were (or at least F-P was) surprised we ere considering trading techs with CDG post Republic deal. I gave it my best shot trying to convince them it was a good idea. But I just want to remind you all, this is the MP world we are dealing with. If they would have gotten there way we would have been choking CDG long before this. And in some respects personally, I think we should consider that approach post Republic. I understand the downsides, not as much tech and they will start military preps.

If we DO decide to continue trading techs then I imagine the above reasons would be all we need to use to convince PAL. After all they would be getting the benefit of less resistance and more techs too.

	30-07-2004 21:26									#236
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Choking them after Republic is absolutely foolish. This may work in multiplayer when playing against other agressive players, but it doesn't work here. What would it acomplish?

We threaten CDG and they do the following:
Focus their sheilds on spears and archers.
Research Masonry and build walls.
DO NOT build roads and improvements that we can steal.
DO NOT build small, weakly defended, sparse cities that cannot protect each other.
DO NOT build wonders and curraghs.

How does this help us???

I don't think we should be bullied by our supposed allies into getting into a skirmish with CDG before we're ready, nor should we tip our hand to CDG so that they can get ready. The only team that benefits from this is PAL, as it will ensure that the war we fight with CDG will cost us more in lives and will allow us to capture less valuable (and less improved) territory.

--Togas

	31-07-2004 00:04									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Togas I don't think we should be bullied by our supposed allies into getting into a skirmish with CDG before we're ready, nor should we tip our hand to CDG so that they can get ready. The only team that benefits from this is PAL, as it will ensure that the war we fight with CDG will cost us more in lives and will allow us to capture less valuable (and less improved) territory.

Completely agree with all your points, especially the quoted one. I dislike this whole affair, but if we have to go through with it, I would like to catch CDG by suprise and lose as few units as possible.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: I forsee a war with PAL after CDG.

	31-07-2004 00:05									#238
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quote: Originally posted by Togas I don't think we should be bullied by our supposed allies into getting into a skirmish with CDG before we're ready, nor should we tip our hand to CDG so that they can get ready. The only team that benefits from this is PAL, as it will ensure that the war we fight with CDG will cost us more in lives and will allow us to capture less valuable (and less improved) territory. --Togas

No need to get pissy Togas.

The PAL team has a different point of view, period.

We should consider that point of view, we are after all allied.

If we decide to stay the cooperation route, so be it. I did do my best last night to convince them it would be the best way to go.

But theres no need to get pissy. I would prefer that we stay above the antics and soap opera ongoing at that other ISDG game.

Thanks

	31-07-2004 00:16									#239
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I think PAL is just being agressive towards CDG. I do not believe that they will come after us afterwards. But, I could be wrong so to hedge that bet, I will side with Togas on this one.

	31-07-2004 00:41									#240
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I don't think togas was being pissy Con, just expressing himself.

I agree with his sentiments. Keep relations neutral leaning towards friendly with them until they see our sword stack marching into thier lands. If a deal can be made and completed PRIOR to the invasion, do so. Otherwise just stall them.