07-05-2004 22:18									#271
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Well Joe Lieberman just screwed up. Apparently the Arab networks are carrying Rumsfeld's testimony live. From what I saw, the general approach was to treat the accusations extremely seriously, which couldn't but go over well with Arab viewers.

Then along comes Joe with his "We may have done some bad things but the Arabs are barbarians and have done far worse" speech. While that may be true, it is pretty stupid given that the US is trying to show its best side to the Arab world right now.

	07-05-2004 22:24									#272
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris So, brutalizing a prisoner evidently is illegal even before his status is known (that the point of my question, BTW).

It depends on what you call "brutalizing." Mild to moderate threats or intimidation or deception in the immediate process of taking a prisoner. As a prisoner gets to different stages of the capture and confinement process, then the rules are (in theory) more stringently applied, as the immediacy of battlefield necessity and circumstances gives way to long term confinement and specific units or organizations tasked with guarding the prisoners in long term confinement.

The photos coming out of Abu Ghraib clearly cross the line into illegal conduct, but there are definite grey areas involving a much lesser degree of conduct towards prisoners. Abu Ghraib is so blatant that there really should be no doubt on anyone's part that what was done there was a violation of the UCMJ.

	07-05-2004 22:27									#273
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Looks like Rumsfeld stays.

For now. Watergate looked like a non-starter in the fall of 1972.

	07-05-2004 22:34									#274
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Yes, yes. For now.

	07-05-2004 22:35									#275
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quote: Then along comes Joe with his "We may have done some bad things but the Arabs are barbarians and have done far worse" speech. While that may be true, it is pretty stupid given that the US is trying to show its best side to the Arab world right now.

Well, there is a plurality of opinions. Nothing wrong with that.

	07-05-2004 22:37									#276
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It looks/sounds bad, at a sensitive time, that's all. I wish my senator had kept his friggin' mouth shut.

-Arrian

	07-05-2004 23:20									#277
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While this is certanly a big deal, I don't think it is as big a deal in Iraq itself as we make it-outside Iraq, yes, inside it?

The guys getting tortured, molested, in some cases shot were not the most popular men in Iraq, so I doubt anyone besides the families is shedding many tears for them-people in Iraq aren;t anymore caring for their fellow man than anyone else.

In other arab states, certainly it is a PR disaster, but then, so was the whole Iraq war, and Bush's support for Sharon (which in the end didn;t do anything for Sharon either), so this is icing on a vast cake, not the cake itself.

	08-05-2004 00:17									#278
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The Swedish TV news is trying to make a domestic scandal by the fact that similar torture methods (sleep & sense depravation by cuffing, hooding, loud foreign music and long sessions of the prisoner standing in tension) are regularly used in training of Swedish marines and paratroopers, to prepare them for possible captivity.

According to what I read, most nations train their elite soldiers this way, but on the other hand, elite soldiers are volonteers even in nations with conscription.

	08-05-2004 00:19									#279
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Those were NOT the tactics being used here, as far as the scandal goes. Much worse things were being done.

	08-05-2004 00:26									#280
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quote: Originally posted by GePap While this is certanly a big deal, I don't think it is as big a deal in Iraq itself as we make it-outside Iraq, yes, inside it? The guys getting tortured, molested, in some cases shot were not the most popular men in Iraq, so I doubt anyone besides the families is shedding many tears for them-people in Iraq aren;t anymore caring for their fellow man than anyone else. In other arab states, certainly it is a PR disaster, but then, so was the whole Iraq war, and Bush's support for Sharon (which in the end didn;t do anything for Sharon either), so this is icing on a vast cake, not the cake itself.

I posted this before, but according to a Swedish reporter in Iraq, people on the street in Baghdad are more upset about the marines' brutal assault on Falluja than about this. The unrepareable damage was already done, and this was just a confirmation of what people already knew - USA is bad.

	08-05-2004 00:32									#281
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Well, there is a plurality of opinions. Nothing wrong with that.

There is when you are playing to the Arab street. Why couldn't he have kept his mouth shut. Politics is the art of knowing what not to say.

	08-05-2004 00:38									#282
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My god my people are stupid.

	08-05-2004 00:43									#283
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Rumsfeld has indicated that there exist more pics and videos that are far worse than what has already been seen. Sen. Graham noted that the worst was yet to come as well with these things. Urrrrrrggggh.

	08-05-2004 00:49									#284
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Well, I guess I'm not visiting the ME anytime in my life.

	08-05-2004 00:51									#285
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Sen. Graham noted that the worst was yet to come as well with these things. Urrrrrrggggh.

Worse than sodomizing people with a chem light! :vomit:

	08-05-2004 01:25									#286
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You have little imagination DD.

Plus, I think killing prisoners, as some reports state has happened, is worse.

	08-05-2004 01:47									#287
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This happened at Saddam's infamous prison, so I guess there were some neat tools at hand when US moved in.

	08-05-2004 02:11									#288
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Rumsfeld has indicated that there exist more pics and videos that are far worse than what has already been seen. Sen. Graham noted that the worst was yet to come as well with these things. Urrrrrrggggh.

What were the people that were taping and taking photos of these things thinking???

I agree with the senator who asked that that prison be blown up.

	08-05-2004 02:16									#289
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There always seems to be someone with a camera, no matter what is being done...its uncanny.

	08-05-2004 02:26									#290
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The worse is yet to be revealed?


damn . . . . . .

	08-05-2004 02:31									#291
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Oof...

	08-05-2004 02:43									#292
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quote: So, brutalizing a prisoner evidently is illegal even before his status is known

Yes the 1978 protacol to the Geneva convention says that you are not allowed to mistreat any prisoner (physically or mentally)

see here look under Article 75 part2

	08-05-2004 02:56									#293
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More to the point is. WTF was Rumsfeld thinking? If this was known for ages, did he simply think they could get away with it?

	08-05-2004 03:02									#294
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quote: "Apparently the worst is yet to come," Rumsfeld said. "There are lot more pictures and many investigations underway. . . . If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse. I looked at them last night, and they're hard to believe. Be on notice. . . . It's not a pretty picture."

	08-05-2004 03:02									#295
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon More to the point is. WTF was Rumsfeld thinking? If this was known for ages, did he simply think they could get away with it?

Perhaps he thought it would be a secret until after the election. Or he didn't understand that there were something bad about it until someone explained it to him?

	08-05-2004 03:13									#296
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The arrogance of these bastards knows no bounds.

I agree with Ted Kennedy, replace him with Powell who is at least competent.

	08-05-2004 03:43									#297
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Agathon, your new avatar rocks more than anything has rocked before. But how can an ultra- commie have an ultra-capitalist jew as avatar?

	08-05-2004 03:59									#298
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This is a postmodern world, my friend. Abandon all pretence of reason!!!

	08-05-2004 04:46									#299
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On a side note, has anyone heard about the torture of the Russian soldiers in Chechnya?

They are available on the net. Everyone who has seen them feels sick and says the are very disturbing.

Where is the outrage at those videos???

	08-05-2004 04:52									#300
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Where is the outrage at those videos???

The Russian soldier's mother's union? A very strong lobby group - don't under estimate them... They actually stopped the first war!