08-05-2004 07:17									#301
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I just heard that the pictures which haven't been released include a video of a prisoner being forced to masturbate in front of female guards.

That's bad.

But I also heard that there are pictures of male and female prisoners naked. If they are the same sort of sexually degrading pictures that we've seen, then this will make the Arabs go berserk.

You know what they're like about women. I wouldn't want to be within a bull's roar of the Middle East if these come out.

	08-05-2004 10:25									#302
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has this been posted?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/

quote: Rumsfeld did not describe the photos, but U.S. military officials told NBC News that the unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi female prisoner and “acting inappropriately with a dead body.” The officials said there was also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys.

sickening.

	08-05-2004 13:20									#303
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Psychologists say that an average jail guard simply can not treat prisoners as human without special training.

Those who are real guilty criminals are not those, who misstreated inmates, but those f.king cameramen.

	08-05-2004 13:32									#304
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women should not be prison guards, I feel strongly about this. And this includes domestic prisons inside the U.S.

I hope they don't go easy on this England girl because she's a woman. She better get 20 years hard labour like the rest of them. If anything, she should get more hard labour time.

And her dumbass sister is defending her saying she was only following orders!. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. How would she like to be treated like that if she were captured?

I don't understand why the army reserve is so perveted. We were never that perverted in the navy . I never knew anyone who would dream of doing something like this.

	08-05-2004 13:37									#305
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Well, I guess I'm not visiting the ME anytime in my life.

trust me, you aren't missing much

	08-05-2004 13:37									#306
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker On a side note, has anyone heard about the torture of the Russian soldiers in Chechnya? They are available on the net. Everyone who has seen them feels sick and says the are very disturbing. Where is the outrage at those videos???

In Russia
Sadly, the Chechnya tragedy doesn't get the spotlight it deserves

	08-05-2004 13:39									#307
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker On a side note, has anyone heard about the torture of the Russian soldiers in Chechnya? They are available on the net. Everyone who has seen them feels sick and says the are very disturbing. Where is the outrage at those videos???

Americans are held to a higher standard, as we should be.

	08-05-2004 13:44									#308
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Well it's partly that, and that these are UK and US soldiers so the UK and US press will give a lot more press to it, as it actually affects our countries.

	08-05-2004 13:51									#309
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those photos sicken me.

But for some reason the conduct of the women bothers me the worst. women should not be allowed near prisoners because they should not be viewing males naked. And this includes inside domestic prisons in the U.S.

I supported the war up until now.

But now I suspect something is seriously wrong with americans, and they should never go to war again. Something is sick, and twisted. Our american society has hit it's worst. We have no business starting wars, we have proven we are worse than the nations we attacked.

I hereby withdraw my support of George W. Bush this upcoming election. The goverment needs to be overthrown. This is not what the founding fathers envisioned.

don't think I'm voting for John Kerry. this dumbass admits to committing atrocities

Last edited by Dis on 08-05-2004 at 14:00

	08-05-2004 14:15									#310
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quote: America has proven itself worse than the nations it invades.

Nope. American soldiers did not execute direct orders of their commanders when misstreating inmates while Iraqi jailguards did. Also i think that USA should think about wery serious (but expansive) psychological preparation for work in jail. When randomly selected pacifist students participated in psychological experement as temporary jailguards half of them became brutal.

	08-05-2004 14:22									#311
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If half of what the reports say is true about the remaining pictures then the government is in a very difficult position. Either the pictures are released or speculation will mount that they have been suppressed or destroyed. Neither option seems better than the other from the point of view of the administration.

Among several other papers, today's New York Times has called for Rumsfeld's resignation, and that now looks like the path of least resistance. How long do you give him?

Looking around the net it seems that Dissident's feelings are shared by the majority of people. Could this effectively be the end of any large scale support for the war? It doesn't seem that the US has any credibility left with Arabs, and if these new pictures come out the level of hatred can only increase.

It simply beggars belief to think that those in charge didn't know about this. Surely if they cared at all, they would have made it their business to know. The only reasonable surmise is that they didn't give a ****. Their humming and hawing about the Geneva Conventions looks even worse in the light of what has gone on.

Whatever is going on at Gitmo is now immediately suspect no matter what Bush or anyone else says.

	08-05-2004 14:27									#312
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Agathon, I bet that if you were jailguard you would behave as brutally as those USA soldiers shown on pictures.

	08-05-2004 17:01									#313
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quote: Nope. American soldiers did not execute direct orders of their commanders when misstreating inmates while Iraqi jailguards did. Also i think that USA should think about wery serious (but expansive) psychological preparation for work in jail. When randomly selected pacifist students participated in psychological experement as temporary jailguards half of them became brutal.

Which actually would mean that direct orders aren't necessary since torturing happens anyway. At least as long as nothing is done to prevent it.

	08-05-2004 17:13									#314
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quote: Pentagon Refused Lawyer As Prison Adviser Pentagon Refused Lawyer As Prison Adviser Sat May 8, 2:14 AM ET Add White House - AP Cabinet & State to My Yahoo! By MATT KELLEY, Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON - Pentagon (news - web sites) officials rejected an Army plan last year to send an experienced military lawyer — who is also a Republican member of Congress — to help oversee the unit blamed for prisoner abuse at the Abu Ghraib complex outside Baghdad. That left the prison complex, which holds up to 7,000 Iraqis, without an onsite lawyer to guide interrogations and treatment of prisoners. The top lawyer for the 800th Military Police Brigade, the Army unit in charge of detainees at Abu Ghraib, later came under fire in an Army report about the abuse for being ineffective and "unwilling to accept responsibility for any of his actions." The rejected lawyer, Rep. Steve Buyer, R-Ind., and other experts say having had a lawyer at the prison might have prevented or at least mitigated the beatings, sexual humiliation and other abuse detailed in photographs and the Army probe. "It's always good to have a lawyer around so you've got a conscience for the command and an opportunity to vet questions," said retired Army Maj. Gen. William L. Nash, who commanded an armored brigade during the 1991 Gulf War (news - web sites). Pentagon officials confirmed there was no onsite lawyer at Abu Ghraib, but spokesmen for Army Secretary Les Brownlee and Pentagon personnel officials did not respond to repeated requests for comment Friday. Bryan Whitman, a spokesman for Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, referred questions to the Army. Buyer, a strong supporter of the Iraq (news - web sites) war and a lieutenant colonel in the Army Reserves, had volunteered to go to Iraq shortly after the invasion in March 2003. In a telephone interview Friday with The Associated Press, Buyer said military officials all the way up to the Joint Chiefs of Staff had approved his assignment to the 800th Military Police Brigade, which has handled Iraqi prisoners of war since the beginning of the conflict. Pentagon personnel officials and Brownlee rejected the assignment, saying the Army could fill the requirement another way. Brownlee also wrote to Buyer that his high-profile status could bring danger to the troops around him. Buyer said he objected to David Chu, the Pentagon's personnel chief, and Charles Abell, Chu's deputy. "I expressed the importance of having a (lawyer) at the camp," Buyer said. "You have to ask, when you had a qualified officer, and the civilian leaders, Dr. Chu and the secretary of the Army, said no, who did you send in his place?" Soldiers from the 800th MP Brigade have been accused not only of abusing prisoners in Abu Ghraib but also detainees at the Camp Bucca POW facility near Basra in southern Iraq. The military also is investigating a dozen prisoner deaths in Afghanistan (news - web sites) and Iraq, some of them in facilities run by the 800th Brigade. Buyer served as a lawyer at a prisoner of war camp run by the 800th Brigade during the first Gulf War. His duties, Buyer said, included helping the International Committee of the Red Cross monitor conditions and ensuring guards followed international law such as the Geneva Conventions. He said he also questioned some Iraqis suspected of war crimes. "The 800th MP Brigade performed exemplary service in the Gulf War," Buyer said. "There was no hint of any mistreatment or maltreatment of prisoners. It never happened. They had excellent leadership." The investigation of Abu Ghraib by Army Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba found serious problems with the brigade's leadership, including its commander, Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski. Taguba wrote that even after the abuse at Camp Bucca in May 2003, Karpinski did not give the unit proper training. "I could find no evidence that BG Karpinski ever directed corrective training for her soldiers or ensured that MP soldiers throughout Iraq clearly understood the requirements of the Geneva Conventions relating to the treatment of detainees," Taguba wrote. The Associated Press obtained a copy of the classified report this week. http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto...ected&printer=1

	08-05-2004 17:52									#315
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quote: American soldiers did not execute direct orders of their commanders when mistreating inmates while Iraqi jail guards did.

The big problem isn’t that senior politicians have explicitly ordered the mistreatment of prisoners, rather that by employing ‘independent contractors’ they have effectively provided a way where they can claim that these actions have occurred outside their control. If politicians have ordered the military to accept the orders of these individuals then they would be more responsible than the senior soldiers.

I read one article that said that the independent contractors could not be tried for their actions, as they fall outside as they fall outside military law. Unfortunately I don’t remember where. However whilst looking for it I found this which says that the independent contractor there is still in post.

	08-05-2004 18:05									#316
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quote: Originally posted by the_ceebs I read one article that said that the independent contractors could not be tried for their actions, as they fall outside as they fall outside military law. Unfortunately I don’t remember where. However whilst looking for it I found this which says that the independent contractor there is still in post.

The 60 minutes report said that. They added that none of the interogaters have had charges brought against them. (Although that report is a week or two old now, things may of changed.)

	08-05-2004 19:32									#317
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didn't realise this was in the original tv broadcast, having only seen excerpts.

	08-05-2004 19:46									#318
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Well, I think what they should now do is deliver justice and punish every single soldier who has dirt in them. And the their superiors, it is their responsibility to know what is going on, and if they didn't bother to check up, then they violated their responsibilities and are partially responsible by default anyway.

They should make it clear that this was done by individuals and they will be punished severely. Make an example of them and say this same procedure applies to anyone who does the same crap and that the supervision over these prisons will be more effective from this day on and it stops now. That's the only sensible thing to do.

	08-05-2004 20:12									#319
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I know the solution! Iraqi POWs should be held in Kurdish jails. This will make'em speak.

	08-05-2004 20:20									#320
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Tear down that prison, too. That was another bonehead idea to use what was essentially Saddam's torture factory as a US detainee center.

	08-05-2004 20:20									#321
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just saw a couple of pics. Holy ****

	08-05-2004 20:25									#322
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quote: Originally posted by the_ceebs The big problem isn’t that senior politicians have explicitly ordered the mistreatment of prisoners, rather that by employing ‘independent contractors’ they have effectively provided a way where they can claim that these actions have occurred outside their control. If politicians have ordered the military to accept the orders of these individuals then they would be more responsible than the senior soldiers. I read one article that said that the independent contractors could not be tried for their actions, as they fall outside as they fall outside military law. Unfortunately I don’t remember where. However whilst looking for it I found this which says that the independent contractor there is still in post.

Military law doesn't apply to civilians under the UCMJ (enacted by Congress in 1952 to supersede previous military law), but Federal law still applies to the conduct of US citizens overseas. Conspiracy charges are a common example, as are drug lord cases, including Manuel Noriega. Recently, there have been prosecutions of US citizens going to Thailand for "sex vacations" involving sex with young girls (preteen and early teen). If it's a priority of the administration, the Federal judicial system can handle it.

	08-05-2004 20:39									#323
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What if they aren't US citizens?

	08-05-2004 20:53									#324
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quote: Originally posted by the_ceebs What if they aren't US citizens?

That's a lot murkier - Noriega, for example, isn't, and never committed any act on US territory, but the specific statutes under which he was prosecuted extended to any acts which led to illegal drugs entering the US. If there are non-US citizen contractors involved, then whether or not they could be prosecuted by the US (a sovereign Iraq is a different issue ) really is a question of what specifically they did, where, and what connection their acts had to US military or civilian personnel. There would be a lot of technical legal issues involved.

	08-05-2004 21:56									#325
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quote: Originally posted by muxec Agathon, I bet that if you were jailguard you would behave as brutally as those USA soldiers shown on pictures.

I'll bet not. I don't have the right personality type to be in the army as it is. I can't stand being told what to do by idiots. Tests have continually shown me to be extremely independently minded and anti authoritarian. There's no way I'd join in that crap.

	08-05-2004 22:41									#326
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident But now I suspect something is seriously wrong with americans, and they should never go to war again. Something is sick, and twisted. Our american society has hit it's worst.

I agree with everything else you said in that post, but I disagree with that particular point. I don't sick these sick scenes are specifically American. At the contrary, I think they are human, universal. That's what happen when you put ordinary people in situations like these.

This is not the American people that is sick and twisted, far from it (the collective guilt felt about it shows you are a much better people than many others). War is sick and twisted. It is in a situation of war that people can behave like beasts, like monsters, whatever their nationality. That's why we can't start wars on a whim like it happened in Iraq.

	08-05-2004 22:57									#327
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Why do I get the sinking feeling this goes far beyond the six or seven convenient scapegoats? The complete and absolute lack of any concern on their faces or in their actions implies a comfort level which is disturbing. Combined with the large number of pictures I'm thinking there was something systemic going on here.

	08-05-2004 23:45									#328
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Take a search among the old off-topic threads.

Search fx. for prisoner.... and among many "dirty" items you will find this:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...hlight=prisoner

	09-05-2004 00:18									#329
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quote: Originally posted by Wezil Why do I get the sinking feeling this goes far beyond the six or seven convenient scapegoats? The complete and absolute lack of any concern on their faces or in their actions implies a comfort level which is disturbing. Combined with the large number of pictures I'm thinking there was something systemic going on here.

Naw their weirdos. Strange sexual deviants that found one another as guards in an Iraqi prison.

	09-05-2004 00:21									#330
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quote: Originally posted by Jac de Molay Tear down that prison, too. That was another bonehead idea to use what was essentially Saddam's torture factory as a US detainee center.

Agreed.

This needs to be done as soon as possible.