09-05-2004 01:58									#331
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Looking at that old thread. What happened to Ned?

	09-05-2004 02:37									#332
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The US headed towards this scandal right from 9/11. Under the cover of "fighting terrorism", many legal procedures nd standards of treatment became undermined, criticism and warnings by NGOs were labeled as politically motivated, unpatriotic or blue-eyed towards the needs of a war against such an enemy. At some time and some place, this erosion and black-and-white thinking had to lead on the lowest and most primitive level to the assumption that everything is allowed against "the other". And apparently, it took very long - many months - until it blew up.
Even if this case was completely isolated - at least in its cruelty - : this went on for a long time and in that certain prison everyone seems to have known what was going on as many testimonies now show. Some commanders must have messed this up and Rumsfeld certainly did, as he had informations on what happened but only now - with the pictures in the media and not some pathetic whinging NGO - the govt. and military react. Resolving this affair by punishing only the guardsmen as scapegoats can't be it or the US finally really proof their lack of understanding of core principles like "political responsability" - like Rumsfeld himself seems to do.
At least the absolute conviction of many Americans that such things just couldn't happen in their system is broken by those pictures. Such things can happen anywhere, in any army, especially when commanders and officials don't fear that anything could happen to them.

	09-05-2004 04:11									#333
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III The US headed towards this scandal right from 9/11.

That's 100% right. The Bush Administration bungled 9/11 from day one.

9/11 was an historic opportunity tragically lost to unite the world behind The United States. Now we see the opposite happening.

	09-05-2004 04:18									#334
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse 9/11 was an historic opportunity tragically lost to unite the world behind The United States. Now we see the opposite happening.

Bull. The appeal 9/11 bloody shirt might have lasted awhile longer had Bush been more flexible but the tragedy would have faded into the background as more recent issues came up.

	09-05-2004 09:19									#335
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AH: Human nature blames the victim. It's a coping mechanism that helps people forget injustice and make some sense out of the world. It used to be more pronounced in ancient times, but it's still there in spades.

	09-05-2004 10:48									#336
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People are blaming the Iraqis?

	09-05-2004 10:57									#337
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You still don't get it. Sadly you're soldiers will bleed in Iraq until you do.

How the Bush Administration managed to squander and then trash the enormous outpouring of international support and sympathy for the USA after 9/11 through it's arrogant belligerent unilateralist policies will go down in history as one of the greatest foreign policy debacles of modern times. I have no doubt about it.

It's simply breath taking. You need a really special gift for foreign policy incompetence to get from 9/11 to the mess we're in right now.

Jesus H Christ - OBL is starting to look like a hero to the muslim world. Why? Because the Bush Administration responded to 9/11 in exactly the way OBL wanted it to - by lashing out. They've managed make 9/11 look like pure genious.

Of course in all this the chicken hawks have been ascendent and the foreign policy and security intelligence professionals have been sidelined. The sooner Rumsfeld and that whole rotten gang leaves, the better. They have blood on their hands.

Not a single one of the key whitehouse neocons ever put their life on the line btw. Funny that. It's always people like that who send others to their death.

	09-05-2004 11:10									#338
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quote: Why? Because the Bush Administration responded to 9/11 in exactly the way OBL wanted it to - by lashing out. They've managed make 9/11 look like pure genious.

Yep. Anyone who can't see that this was the point of 911 must be some kind of dumb.

At the moment OBL is winning.

	09-05-2004 11:17									#339
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And who are they left with as their closest ally? Israel, that running sore of the Middle East.

Oh this is just priceless. Meanwhile people die.

	09-05-2004 11:18									#340
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I can't belive the conservatives on the radio were defending these torture photos today on the radio. Unbelievable.

I'm a conservative, and I can't see any good.

I have never felt more ashamed of being an american.

I've been meaning to ask MTG if there were any good jobs down in Tijuana. I would go to Canada, but they won't have me.

	09-05-2004 11:26									#341
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here's an article from my local paper. My local reserve unit was rebuilding and running that prison before the Maryland unit took over.

People say bad things about my city, but you don't see perverts like that in my city. We keep sex in the open, so people don't build up these pent up perversions. Then a maryland (catholic state) unit shows up. These catholics never talk about sex, and have built up strange perversions.

Okay I'm reaching there . Draw your own conclusions. Of course the article I am posting is one soldier talking mostly. Of course he isn't going to say he tortured people, even if he did.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_h...s/23836732.html

	09-05-2004 12:14									#342
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"just saw a couple of pics. Holy ****"


OK Yanks....ya know you've gone and done it when even the battle-scarred, seen-it-all Israeli contingent is floored...

	09-05-2004 12:16									#343
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Dissident: Don't you live in the SW? No hispanic catholics over there?

	09-05-2004 12:19									#344
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Funny to see people are trying to politically profit of this here. Not unexpected. This will be taken care of. I think the best thing to do is release the accused former soldiers to an Iraqi judge. I have no problem with seeing them executed. I'm not defending the photos. In fact like the President, I condemn them and am totally disgusted. I threw up when I first saw them. For real, my food came up because I was so disgusted. I never been so disgusted in my life.

	09-05-2004 12:23									#345
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you're supposedly gay, why did you throw up?

	09-05-2004 12:24									#346
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident you're supposedly gay, why did you throw up?

This is my problem with apolyton. Can it ever be serious in OT? Can we ever speak seriously? I overestimate you guys.

	09-05-2004 12:24									#347
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This photos really disturbed me, but I couldn't help but laugh at Saturday Night Live.

They have the Lyyndie England girl on. I found that humorous. Humour can help ease the pain of seeing the photos.

I wasn't sure if SNL would joke about this scandal. But they are going all out.

	09-05-2004 13:22									#348
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I'm afraid to ask, but exactly how were the male detainees raped?

	09-05-2004 16:06									#349
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I know the right punishment for Lyyndie England. Send her as inmate to ordinary US male jail. I think that several days would be just enough. Stupidity must be cured.

	09-05-2004 16:19									#350
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quote: some pathetic whinging NGO

Erm isn't that the internationally recognised neutral inspector of the conditions of proper behaviour in war?

Even the Nazi party recognised this fact.

	09-05-2004 16:37									#351
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker "just saw a couple of pics. Holy ****" OK Yanks....ya know you've gone and done it when even the battle-scarred, seen-it-all Israeli contingent is floored...

Really. I mean, wtf?

	09-05-2004 16:46									#352
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Interesting how the US posters are the last to see the photos - confirming something we've known for some time - their own mainstream media is heavily slanted and does not keep the public informed.

	09-05-2004 17:41									#353
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Jesus H Christ - OBL is starting to look like a hero to the muslim world. Why? Because the Bush Administration responded to 9/11 in exactly the way OBL wanted it to - by lashing out. They've managed make 9/11 look like pure genious.

You really think they expected that to be our response? Why the hell would they think that? For twenty years or more, we've been doing the exact opposite. Every time Americans died, we pulled out. Look at Beirut. Look at Kosovo, even - we waged it almost entirely from the air because Clinton was afraid of Americans dieing. Look what happened after the Cole and the embassy bombing - all we did was lob a few cruise missiles at them.

Their goal is (and was) to get us out of the middle east. They were not going to try some convoluted plan of bringing us into the middle east just to try and get us out again. They aren't retards.

In fact, Afghanistan was a disaster for them - we've severely disrupted their central command-and-control.

	09-05-2004 17:55									#354
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quote: Originally posted by the_ceebs Erm isn't that the internationally recognised neutral inspector of the conditions of proper behaviour in war? Even the Nazi party recognised this fact.

Just for my interest: What exactly are you trying to tell me. Honestly, I don't get it.

	09-05-2004 17:56									#355
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@muxec: You really try to rival Fez, don't you?

	09-05-2004 18:16									#356
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quote: Originally posted by muxec I know the right punishment for Lyyndie England. Send her as inmate to ordinary US male jail. I think that several days would be just enough. Stupidity must be cured.

Actually, this statement shows that your moral can't stand much above that of the guardsmen themselves. In your post you state the very psychological key behind the maltreatment of the prisoners: one has to be convinced that a person deserves torture treatment, that it would be just. Then add a portion of perversion and voilá. But fact is that no one does deserve such a treatment, not for a day, not for an hour, no matter what he's done, not the Iraqis, not the guardsmen, no terrorists. Once you think it can be justified, there'll be twisted people who carry it out too.

	09-05-2004 18:30									#357
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quote: You really think they expected that to be our response? Why the hell would they think that? For twenty years or more, we've been doing the exact opposite. Every time Americans died, we pulled out.

So, OBL expected the US to pull out from Manhattan?

	09-05-2004 18:49									#358
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III Actually, this statement shows that your moral can't stand much above that of the guardsmen themselves. In your post you state the very psychological key behind the maltreatment of the prisoners: one has to be convinced that a person deserves torture treatment, that it would be just. Then add a portion of perversion and voilá. But fact is that no one does deserve such a treatment, not for a day, not for an hour, no matter what he's done, not the Iraqis, not the guardsmen, no terrorists. Once you think it can be justified, there'll be twisted people who carry it out too.

Actually, this statement shows that your sence of humor is off.

	09-05-2004 18:53									#359
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Their goal is (and was) to get us out of the middle east.

A goal which "they" are succeeding at achieving at a remarkably rapid rate right now.

I mean, don't let the door hit you on the way out. You are going out backwards with breathtaking speed. It's stunning.

Going to the Middle East with conventional military forces and putting them in an occupation role was just about the worst thing you could do. The US is far too close to Israel too ever pull that one off. This is worse than Vietnam in some ways - South Vietnam had an army and government after all.

Do you think your army or your country is looking powerful right now? You are being humiliated over there in ways that make the humiliation of those prisoners look like child's play.

This is very very bad for all of us in the West, not just Americans.

But hey, you like unwinnable wars.

And even pimply teenagers on this pissant internet forum predicted precisely what is happening in Iraq!!!!!!!! That in itself says something quite incredible about those running this war I think. Blind Freddey could see this agony coming.

What is this? The start of the Apocalypse? It's so freaky.

Maybe they can turn things around.....I just can't see it right now without major changes in policy.

	09-05-2004 19:00									#360
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Wernazuma III , i Think that my proposal is a great example of humanism. I do not propose long prison terms or huge fines. I proposed only several days of jail.

And also the proposal about Iraqi POWs and Kurdish jails is very humane. POWs will say everything they know even before entering Kurdish jail. It's act of humanism too.