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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
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AH has a point though:
Bush managed to completely alienate most of the world. Right after Sept. 11, the whole world was behind the US. But his reckless policy made him alienate pretty much the whole Arab world, "Old Europe", most of "New Europe" who was with him out of self-interest, Russia, China, Muslim Asian countries.
In two years.
This is the main reason why so many Americans die in Iraq, and this is the reason why there aren't enough troops. The Bushies thought they could do the fighting nearly alone, and they gave the rest of the world the finger. Wow.
Besides, the US is progressively sacrificing its freedoms it's so proud of, for the sake of fighting terrorism. Terrorism is a handy excuse to come up with bigoted policies, and bigoted ideological gap.
Afghanistan was a debacle for AQ's infrastructure. But they have won pretty much all political battles so far: "bigoting" the American population into crusaders, considerably raising their own support in the Arab world, letting the Americans destroy their diplomatic relations out of bigotry... If I was Ben Laden, I wouldn't say things are that bad, if only it wasn't for that wet cave 
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the_ceebs
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Todays Observer front page article says that Three UK personell were at Abu Ghraib although they had no knowledge of the abuses and were nothing to do with the guarding of prisoners.
It also includes details of the Taguba report
quote:
Officials are known to be shocked by the findings, contained in a report by Major-General Antonio Taguba, the senior US officer secretly sent to investigate the abuse. According to Taguba's leaked report: 'Various detention facilities operated by military police in Iraq, hosted "ghost detainees" - unidentified prisoners brought to them by "other government agencies".
Taguba reports that the 320th MP Battalion at Abu Ghraib 'held a handful of "ghost detainees" that they moved around within the facility to hide them from a visiting International Committee of the Red Cross survey team.' He concludes: 'This manoeuvre was deceptive, contrary to army doctrine and in violation of international law.'' |
It also reports that Condolezza Rice, Colin Powel and Paul Wolfwitz were personally informed of 'Abuse tantamount to torture' by the President of the International red cross Jakob Kallenberger.
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Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
AH has a point though: |
Not in that our actions were AQ's goal.
quote:
Bush managed to completely alienate most of the world. Right after Sept. 11, the whole world was behind the US. |
I really doubt that they were that much more "behind" us, except in a "we'll say nice things about you" sort of way.
Obviously, 9/11 garnered support for Afghanistan, but Bush didn't mess that up (wrt foreign relations).
quote:
But his reckless policy made him alienate pretty much the whole Arab world, "Old Europe", most of "New Europe" who was with him out of self-interest, Russia, China, Muslim Asian countries.
In two years. |
1) How did any of this piss China off? I don't believe I've ever heard about them complaining or even getting involved.
2) Iraq has been the major source of division, and that, as I mentioned, is unrelated to 9/11.
quote:
This is the main reason why so many Americans die in Iraq, and this is the reason why there aren't enough troops. The Bushies thought they could do the fighting nearly alone, and they gave the rest of the world the finger. Wow. |
You also forget the fact that they didn't follow the Pentagon's recommendations wrt the number of troops.
quote:
Besides, the US is progressively sacrificing its freedoms it's so proud of, for the sake of fighting terrorism. Terrorism is a handy excuse to come up with bigoted policies, and bigoted ideological gap. |
Except in a few, extremely limited circumstances, nothing of the sort has occured - and in those instances, it has had nothing to do with suppressing political opposition, but rather a genuine national security concern. While that isn't justification, the fact that even in those instances there is a lot of pressure from the courts means I'm not particularly worried about us becoming fascists 
Plus, we're still WAY better than, for instance, France, where you admittedly prosecute people for political expression.
quote:
Afghanistan was a debacle for AQ's infrastructure. But they have won pretty much all political battles so far: "bigoting" the American population into crusaders, considerably raising their own support in the Arab world, letting the Americans destroy their diplomatic relations out of bigotry... If I was Ben Laden, I wouldn't say things are that bad, if only it wasn't for that wet cave |
Except 9/11 was not the cause of any of these political victories, but rather policies Bush was already planning to implement. 9/11 was one of the stupidest things AQ could have done.
In a certain limited sense, though, it was an enormous success - it resulted in hundreds of billions or even trillions of dollars of damage to our economy.
(btw - where has there been a rise in "bigotry" where it wasn't already there?)
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09-05-2004 19:04
And this phenomenon explains the spectacular lack of mainstream criticism against Bush until Dean pumped up the volume. Even today, you will still hear many people saying all Yanks should stick with the president in these times of war.
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