04-05-2004 16:28									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Many people who were Republican aren't anymore, because they feel the RR has idealogically debased the party. And no, a complete severance is NOT necessary. Only enough of a divergence to change the core values of the party. To many, that's exactly what the RR has done to the party. The focus on "moral values" and intrusive government to do so is something many Republicans find regnant, as is the loss of fiscal discipline.

Yep, it's exactly those issues that pushed me away from the party more than 20 years ago.

	04-05-2004 16:43									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I think I might have supported Goldwater over Nixon.

You're Canadian. What difference would it make who you would have liked?

	04-05-2004 16:57									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Yep, it's exactly those issues that pushed me away from the party more than 20 years ago.

My grandfather was the same way. He was a loyal Taft Republican, but once the RR got into the party and the focus shifted, he got disgusted. He held on for as long as he could, hoping the party would change back. Then Newt came along...

	04-05-2004 17:22									#184
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Anyone have a link to any Goldwater articles not dealing with gays? I'd like to see his stances on issues of actual importance.

	04-05-2004 22:47									#185
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Goldwater was pretty cool.

I was a hardcore Republican once. I liked Newt Gingrich because he forced the US government to stop spending so much money.

I voted for Bob Dole in 1996.

But George Bush is the epitome of Republican hypocrisy.

The Republicans objected to use of force around the world when Clinton was in office, "We can't be the worlds policemen!"
The Republicans shut down the government when dem's would not stop spending.

And then here comes W, who rushes into war, and spends money like it's water. Had I not voted Libertarian in 2000, I would have voted for Bush.... I am so glad I did not.

I am dead positive, if I voted for Kerry, I would regret it within months as well. He and Bush are so close on so many issues, I don't see a difference between the two.

	04-05-2004 23:55									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov My grandfather was the same way. He was a loyal Taft Republican, but once the RR got into the party and the focus shifted, he got disgusted. He held on for as long as he could, hoping the party would change back. Then Newt came along...

The Democrats aren't good alternatives, though

	05-05-2004 00:12									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Depends on what you mean by "as bad as." That could encompass many things. He's "as bad as" Sharpton in terms of him being someone for whom I'd rather not vote at all than vote for. But for different reasons.

I mean that, while I'm not a Lieberman fan, he seems to have some sort of actual plan for the future, which may or may not be good but has at least been thought about to some extent. Sharpton has no apparent plan at all beyond rabblerousing and paranoia. Usually I think it's a bit extreme to say a politician is just running to get attention, but in Sharpton's case I really can't see anything else.

	05-05-2004 00:16									#188
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quote: Originally posted by NeOmega The Republicans objected to use of force around the world when Clinton was in office, "We can't be the worlds policemen!" The Republicans shut down the government when dem's would not stop spending. And then here comes W, who rushes into war, and spends money like it's water. Had I not voted Libertarian in 2000, I would have voted for Bush.... I am so glad I did not.

The world changed on 9-11. Bush's "humble foreign policy" was no longer valid after 9-11. He had to change because the world had changed!

	05-05-2004 00:18									#189
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quote: The world changed on 9-11.

No it didn't. People just woke up.

	05-05-2004 00:47									#190
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differences between rupblicans and democrats

no iraq war
no tax cuts
maybe there wouldnt be this backlash against gays

and im sure there are several more

	05-05-2004 00:49									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi What's his position on abortion? I think I might have supported Goldwater over Nixon. This is where I disagree with Goldwater. Your sexual preferences should have nothing to do with your service in the military. Second paper has nothing I disagree with.

Goldwater is pro-abortion.

	05-05-2004 00:49									#192
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I'm pro-Iraq. I just think Bush is doing it poorly.
I'm pro-tax cuts, in general. There's just the little issue of cutting spending as well
Kerry and Bush are both anti-gay marriage - makes me wonder if the religious right has taken over the Democrats too

	05-05-2004 00:56									#193
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Kerry is anti-gay marriage 'cause it wouldn't do his campaign any good to have him sanctioned or excommunicated (not likely, but possible) by his Church.

	05-05-2004 00:58									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Elok I mean that, while I'm not a Lieberman fan, he seems to have some sort of actual plan for the future, which may or may not be good but has at least been thought about to some extent. Sharpton has no apparent plan at all beyond rabblerousing and paranoia. Usually I think it's a bit extreme to say a politician is just running to get attention, but in Sharpton's case I really can't see anything else.

Leiberman has a plan, yes, and it stinks. I wouldn't vote for him. Talk about there being no difference between the Democrats and Republicans--he's as Republican as Bush as far as I can see.

Sharpton lost my vote primarily because of the Tawana Bradley affair and his refusal to accept he was wrong on that, despite her admission she lied. He's a douchebag who ruined people's lives.

	05-05-2004 01:00									#195
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Kerry is anti-gay marriage 'cause it wouldn't do his campaign any good to have him sanctioned or excommunicated (not likely, but possible) by his Church.

Well, if his pro-choice stance doesn't do that, I don't see why supporting gay marriage would.

Kerry wants the states to decide for themselves, which I can handle. His personal opposition to it comes in name only, as he would approve of civil unions with all rights of marriage. I can stomach that in contrast to Bush, who actually wants to enshrine gay bashing in the Constitution.

	05-05-2004 01:07									#196
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Well, it's causing controversy:

quote: Vatican cardinal fuels religious dispute Friday, April 23, 2004 Posted: 5:45 PM EDT (2145 GMT) VATICAN CITY (CNN) -- Just hours before Sen. John Kerry was scheduled to discuss his support for legalized abortion at a large women's rights rally Friday in Washington, a top Vatican cardinal called on priests to deny communion to Catholic politicians like Kerry who take that stance. In a news conference to announce the release of a document aimed at a crackdown on possible abuses in celebrating Mass, Cardinal Francis Arinze was asked if a politician who supports abortion rights should be denied communion. (Full story) "Yes. Objectively, the answer is clear," Arinze said. "The person is not fit. If he shouldn't receive it, then it shouldn't be given." Asked about Kerry, Arinze said the decision would be up to U.S. bishops: "The norm of the church is clear. The Catholic Church exists in the U.S. There are bishops there. Let them interpret it." Kerry supports a woman's right to an abortion and the promotion of family planning resources. He also has said he will only back judges to the Supreme Court who support abortion rights. Kerry has said, "I fully intend to practice my religion as separate from what I do with respect to my public life." Kerry campaign spokeswoman Stephanie Cutter said, "John Kerry takes his faith seriously, but he also believes in the separation of church and state and believes that public officials have a commitment to separate church and state and protect the lives of every American." Some U.S. Roman Catholics have said Kerry should not receive communion because of his position. The senator from Massachusetts received it on Easter -- prompting further debate within the church. After Arinze's comments, Frances Kissling, president of Catholics for a Free Choice, called on the Vatican not to "politicize sacraments." "The Vatican has consistently shown itself to misunderstand the American principle of separation of church and state. ... It is time for church leaders to accept that Catholics in good faith disagree with the absolute prohibition of legal abortion demanded by the Vatican. It is time for church leaders to acknowledge that the threat of denying the sacraments to Catholics who disagree with their positions has no basis in church law. It is both bad politics and bad religion." Asked about the push to deny communion, Cutter said, "For a generation, Catholics have believed in the freedom of conscience. ... At the end of the day, this is between John Kerry and his church." Archbishop Theodore Egan McCarrick of Washington met privately last week with Kerry at the Archdiocese of Washington at the presidential candidate's request. McCarrick is heading up a commission of U.S. bishops to determine if Catholic politicians who support abortion rights should be denied communion. That commission may resolve the issue at a meeting set for November -- after the presidential election.

	05-05-2004 01:12									#197
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Not that I want to threadjack or anything, but this is precisely why people are so squeamish about Kerry:

quote: "John Kerry takes his faith seriously, but he also believes in the separation of church and state and believes that public officials have a commitment to separate church and state and protect the lives of every American."

five paragraphs later...

quote: Archbishop Theodore Egan McCarrick of Washington met privately last week with Kerry at the Archdiocese of Washington at the presidential candidate's request. McCarrick is heading up a commission of U.S. bishops to determine if Catholic politicians who support abortion rights should be denied communion.

	05-05-2004 01:13									#198
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Yeah, but they gave him Communion anyway, and his diocese doesn't seem to have a problem with it. This is just going to be another example where the Vatican blows lots of smoke and Catholics the world over more or less shrug and go their merry way.

	05-05-2004 01:14									#199
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However, the decision isn't to be made until after November, largely upon Kerry's request.

	05-05-2004 01:15									#200
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I don't see how Kerry's meeting with the Archbishop is a contradiction of his statement.

	05-05-2004 19:12									#201
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quote: DADT is essentially "You can be gay as long as nobody knows about it."

Yep... it's utterly silly. If people know you are straight it isn't an issue, but if they know you are gay, it is horrible!

Besides, Goldwater didn't ruin the party. Jeez, a guy who didn't even know who Goldwater was goes off on him . Reagan admits that if there wasn't a Goldwater, there would never have been a President Reagan. Goldwater allowed for a fiscally super conservative Republican to be taken seriously by the party. Of course, in order to take advantage, we needed a Reagan, but nevertheless, Goldwater was important.

	07-05-2004 05:07									#202
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat The world changed on 9-11. Bush's "humble foreign policy" was no longer valid after 9-11. He had to change because the world had changed!

Nothing changed after Bush took office. He continued American interventionalism across the globe, which happened to be the first pre-cursor in the war on terrorism. Who fired the first shot? We did, in the Gulf War. No Islamic terrorist attackes occured in the US before the first gulf war. The reality of any global political scene is, you attack them, they attack us.

	07-05-2004 05:40									#203
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Sava, who would the perfect candidate for you be?

	08-05-2004 05:26									#204
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quote: When they jumped back in, it no longer was the Republican party

Skywalker:

You assume that nothing the religious right believes is a part of the republican party.

That's a rather difficult statement to establish. First of all you need to give your definition of what constitutes a 'republican' party

	08-05-2004 05:32									#205
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quote: You're Canadian. What difference would it make who you would have liked?

If I were American, who would I vote for? Just because I reside in a different country has nothing to do with whether or not I support the ideology of the republican party.

	08-05-2004 05:35									#206
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quote: Jeez, a guy who didn't even know who Goldwater was goes off on him

After first reading the evidence, do I make this statement.

As for whether Goldwater destroyed the republican party, I think it can only be argued that he did so in the short term.

	08-05-2004 05:37									#207
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As for John Kerry and the Catholic church, if you don't like the doctrine don't join the church, or leave the church.

He's trying to have his cake and eat it too.

	08-05-2004 05:40									#208
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quote: And no, a complete severance is NOT necessary. Only enough of a divergence to change the core values of the party.

So core values must be set in stone, so that they do not change?

Secondly, what do you consider the core values of the Republican party? I don't think that taking a stance against gay marriage and abortion need assume fiscal irresponsibility. Rather, I think a case can be made that both abortion and gay marriage are harmful to the country financially.

	08-05-2004 05:40									#209
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quote: Originally posted by NeOmega Nothing changed after Bush took office. He continued American interventionalism across the globe, which happened to be the first pre-cursor in the war on terrorism. Who fired the first shot? We did, in the Gulf War. No Islamic terrorist attackes occured in the US before the first gulf war. The reality of any global political scene is, you attack them, they attack us.

Yup, we're such evil people, for liberating Kuwait and defending Saudi Arabia from invasion at the hands of a brutal ambitious dictator

	08-05-2004 05:42									#210
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Skywalker: You assume that nothing the religious right believes is a part of the republican party. That's a rather difficult statement to establish. First of all you need to give your definition of what constitutes a 'republican' party

They may agree on some points. Everyone agrees on some points. For example, the Democrats and the Republican's both think randomly selecting people to be executed is not a particularly good idea

Specifically, I dislike the whole "I'm going to shove my morality down your throat" thing.