04-05-2004 03:51									#151
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I don't know Goldwater very well.

What sorts of things did he support?

	04-05-2004 04:04									#152
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

You can call him a Libertarian Republican. That's probably what he was closest too. He was for gays in the military and some legalization of drugs. He was also a fiscal super-conservative and Reagan was inspired by some of that. Of course Reagan was The Great Communicator and they don't come along very often.

You probably would not have liked Goldwater. I do though .

	04-05-2004 04:05									#153
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Goldwater has openly expressed revulsion at what the GOP has become today. He's a foreign policy hawk and fiscal conservative, but is socially pretty moderate:

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu....-goldwater.html
http://worldpolicy.org/globalrights.../goldwater.html

	04-05-2004 04:07									#154
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Even Larry Korb, President Reagan's man in charge of implementing the Pentagon ban on gays, now admits that it was a dumb idea. No wonder my friend Dick Cheney, secretary of defense under President Bush, called it "a bit of an old chestnut"

Interesting. Hopefully Cheney can convince the Pentagon of that as well (he probably won't convince Bush).

	04-05-2004 04:08									#155
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

What's his position on abortion?

I think I might have supported Goldwater over Nixon.

quote: What should undermine our readiness would be a compromise policy like "Don't ask, don't tell." That compromise doesn't deal with the issue - it tries to hide it.

This is where I disagree with Goldwater. Your sexual preferences should have nothing to do with your service in the military.

Second paper has nothing I disagree with.

	04-05-2004 04:09									#156
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Goldwater was a nut.

	04-05-2004 04:10									#157
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Your sexual preferences should have nothing to do with your service in the military.

Yep, which is why "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is silly.

Oh, and Goldwater was pro-choice.... He was pretty anti-Christian Right (which is why I think I like him so much ).

	04-05-2004 04:14									#158
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I see now why he destroyed the Republican party.

quote: Yep, which is why "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is silly.

Why?

If you don't ask then it doesn't become an issue.

	04-05-2004 04:17									#159
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why? If you don't ask then it doesn't become an issue.

Gay soldiers being seen or known to "fraternize" with members of the same sex = "telling"

DADT is essentially "You can be gay as long as nobody knows about it." How this is different than the previous policy of frightening people into silence and discharging them when the truth was known, I don't know.

	04-05-2004 04:25									#160
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Gay soldiers being seen or known to "fraternize" with members of the same sex = "telling"

Somehow I suspect your definition of 'fraternising' is different from my own, and rather more steamy.

I agree, that if they have a gay partner, fine, but don't go out of your way to flaunt the point. Too often what happens is that all of these points are taken to be affirmations rather than expressions of indifference.

	04-05-2004 04:28									#161
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I agree, that if they have a gay partner, fine, but don't go out of your way to flaunt the point. Too often what happens is that all of these points are taken to be affirmations rather than expressions of indifference.

What do you define as "flaunting?" If gays are expected to behave differently wrt to their partners than straights (which they are), then it's discrimination, pure and simple.

And do you actually know anything about specific cases where people have been discharged under DADT?

	04-05-2004 04:37									#162
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: If gays are expected to behave differently wrt to their partners than straights (which they are), then it's discrimination, pure and simple.

Rather clever, Boris.

So a partner = a husband or a wife?

I think the military has the right to grant privileges to husbands and wives that are not granted to other partners.

	04-05-2004 04:49									#163
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Maybe you're being dense deliberately, but I doubt it.

Does the military discharge straight men for having girlfriends or straight women for having boyfriends? Or fiancees?

Under DADT, gays can and do get discharged just for it being discovered they are gay. No explicit sexual conduct needed.

	04-05-2004 04:57									#164
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Under DADT, gays can and do get discharged just for it being discovered they are gay.

Really?

I thought they got discharged for telling the military they were gay. They are making their sexual preferences an issue, so the military makes it an issue.

Do you have any evidence that supports your point?

	04-05-2004 05:02									#165
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/9241/INFO.HTML

Timothy R. McVeigh, case in point.

Regardless, being known to have a boyfriend is, to the military, "telling." Is having a girlfriend making an issue of being straight?

	04-05-2004 05:09									#166
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Geocities?

quote: Merely because the word "gay" was in one of my America Online profiles.

That's a little different than what you just said. He's right that he should not be dismissed, but for completely different reasons. It has nothing to do with discrimination, but everything to do with freedom of speech.

	04-05-2004 05:34									#167
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I see now why he destroyed the Republican party.

The Religious Right destroyed the Republican party.

	04-05-2004 06:06									#168
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Geocities?

And the problem is...?

quote: That's a little different than what you just said. He's right that he should not be dismissed, but for completely different reasons. It has nothing to do with discrimination, but everything to do with freedom of speech.

Nothing to do with discrimination?

Would someone with a profile of "straight" be treated the same way? No. So it's discriminatory, because there isn't an equality of treatment wrt sexual orientation.

Regardless, he's one example of many. DADT has been used to dismiss 10,000 people from the armed services since 1993. It specifically addresses homosexuality, singling it out for special treatment. That's the very definition of dicriminatory!

	04-05-2004 06:19									#169
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I a Conservative who don't like Bush all that much, will not vote for Kerry at all. I think he injury his self to get those P. Hearts.

	04-05-2004 06:44									#170
	Increase Your PM Length

A CBH DL?

	04-05-2004 06:46									#171
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

No, Joseph's been around for a while. We tend just to smile and nod.

	04-05-2004 06:53									#172
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov No, Joseph's been around for a while. We tend just to smile and nod.

Well, Well, Boris thank you.

	04-05-2004 06:55									#173
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

It's the grammar that clued me in

	04-05-2004 07:03									#174
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: The Religious Right destroyed the Republican party.

So that's why when they jumped back in things worked again for the Republican party?

I'm inclined to blame Goldwater. I know all the Democrats loved it when Goldwater ran.

	04-05-2004 07:09									#175
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Would someone with a profile of "straight" be treated the same way? No. So it's discriminatory, because there isn't an equality of treatment wrt sexual orientation.

Right, but the way to correct this example is to protect this fellow's right to freedom of speech. That way he won't be dismissed for having an AOL account where he calls himself gay. Seems clear to me.

quote: Regardless, he's one example of many. DADT has been used to dismiss 10,000 people from the armed services since 1993. It specifically addresses homosexuality, singling it out for special treatment. That's the very definition of dicriminatory!

But it is not always wrong to discriminate. There are plenty of cases where people receive special treatment, and you would allow this type of discrimination.

My criteria is this. Can people who are gay, serve on the armed forces without this being an issue? Yes. I also think that people who are not gay who's conduct becomes a problem should also be dismissed. Your preferences should not become an issue. If it does, then it's a problem, regardless of who brings it up.

	04-05-2004 07:09									#176
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So that's why when they jumped back in things worked again for the Republican party?

Which has what to do with the notion that the RR destroyed the party ideologically?

	04-05-2004 07:13									#177
	Tired of ads?

quote: Which has what to do with the notion that the RR destroyed the party ideologically?

How can one destroy a party ideologically, if people who are republican vote for the party? Those who are republican rejected Goldwater overwhelmingly.

The only way to destroy a party ideologically is to completely sever all connections with the previous versions of the republican party. This never happened with the religious right.

Part of the republican party is the religious right, and part of their ideology supports things the religious right believes. This is why folks like Goldwater do not succeed.

	04-05-2004 07:37									#178
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So that's why when they jumped back in things worked again for the Republican party?

When they jumped back in, it no longer was the Republican party

	04-05-2004 07:44									#179
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Right, but the way to correct this example is to protect this fellow's right to freedom of speech. That way he won't be dismissed for having an AOL account where he calls himself gay. Seems clear to me.

Why not just cut the bull and not make an issue of him calling himself "gay" because there's no issue with gay people? It seems you often want to go out of your way to avoid making sure people don't discriminate against people because they are gay...

quote: Your preferences should not become an issue. If it does, then it's a problem, regardless of who brings it up.

Fine, great, swell. So why single out preference at all? By having DADT, the military is the one making preference an issue, not gay people. That all soldiers should be held accountable to a certain standard of conduct isn't a question, so singling out "preference" as an issue is superfluous unless it's being used specifically to target homosexual behavior.

	04-05-2004 07:46									#180
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi How can one destroy a party ideologically, if people who are republican vote for the party? Those who are republican rejected Goldwater overwhelmingly. The only way to destroy a party ideologically is to completely sever all connections with the previous versions of the republican party. This never happened with the religious right.

Many people who were Republican aren't anymore, because they feel the RR has idealogically debased the party.

And no, a complete severance is NOT necessary. Only enough of a divergence to change the core values of the party. To many, that's exactly what the RR has done to the party. The focus on "moral values" and intrusive government to do so is something many Republicans find regnant, as is the loss of fiscal discipline.