17-05-2004 23:54									#91
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I'm sorry I make such a poor right-winger.

that was a good try though... next time, call someone a traitor and praise Dubya as a great leader and your RWer rant will be more credible. OMFGOMFGOMFGOMFGOMFG!

	18-05-2004 00:00									#92
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Question: Could unmixed sarin in a shell work even after five years? I'm not good at chemistry, so I have to trust whatever information the news gives me. And we all know how wrong they usually are at the start.

we don't know how old the stuff is, it does decay rapidly. 2 people were "injured" as a result of this and had to be treated. don't know if that is because they were taking precautions against the IED, or because it was designed to be an explosive and not a chemical dispersal deally, or because it was really decayed. We also don't know the extent of their injury.

	18-05-2004 00:01									#93
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: i do know nkorea has blown up a skorean passenger plane, it's assassinated an entire skorean cabinet, it's tried to wreak a bit of havoc in skorea, it's trained other countries' terrorists...

Iraq did train terrorists as well... tid bits. Sounds like SK should get off their butts and do something about that. Or would they rather bash the American for being in their country and then bash us again for doing something about terrorism and then bash us again for not doing anything about their terrorists... while still bashing us for being in their country.

F'it,.

	18-05-2004 00:02									#94
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Q^3, don't you understand, Saddam gave money to the to the families of suicide bombers who'd had their homes demolished by the IDF. DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND, THIS PROVES SADDAM WAS A TERRORIST!!!!! OMFG OMFG!!!

yes it does prove he's a terrorist. Or at least he's an accomplice. Enough reason to kill him (although not enough reason to invade an innocent country).

	18-05-2004 00:09									#95
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Iraq did train terrorists as well... tid bits. Sounds like SK should get off their butts and do something about that.

sounds like someone who doesn't know what the **** he's talking about.
no offense, but seriously.

quote: Or would they rather bash the American for being in their country and then bash us again for doing something about terrorism and then bash us again for not doing anything about their terrorists... while still bashing us for being in their country.

sounds like someone who only listens to what the noisy young people have to say, because, after all, all those nese look the same and think the same, because, after all, the social dynamic in such confucian states means that it's improper to have a differing opinion at all.

quote: F'it,.

why don't you just go ahead and say it?
f.u.c.k. .i.t.

	18-05-2004 00:12									#96
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hey, my low expectations of this event are confirmed.

Bunch of insurgents find an old shell and decide to rigg it as a roadside bomb- turns out to be a Iran-Iraq war era chemical shell...

The contention made by the amdin. is that Iraq had active WMD programs (including a nuclear weapons program and biological weapons) beyond perhaps not having fully accounted for the stocks of chemical weapons they had prior to Gulf war 1, which everyone knew they had, given they had used them. So this shell only serve to prove the Iraqis had shoddy oversight of their chemical munitions. It does nothing with regards to the more important claims.

	18-05-2004 00:17									#97
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: sounds like someone who doesn't know what the **** he's talking about. no offense, but seriously.

Sounds like someone who has never looked at a newspaper in the past 10 years.
No offense, but seriously.

Ever hear of Salman Pak, to name one.

quote: sounds like someone who only listens to what the noisy young people have to say, because, after all, all those nese look the same and think the same, because, after all, the social dynamic in such confucian states means that it's improper to have a differing opinion at all.

great accuse me of being a racist... great defense Q. Definitly love the fact that you can have differing opinion, but I can't.

	18-05-2004 00:18									#98
	Got spare money?

This thread is a hoot.

	18-05-2004 00:21									#99
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Because brainwashed teenagers can grow up to become brainwashed shock troops that knock down your door and drag you away into the night. Because brainwashed teenagers can grow up into brainwashed informants who turn their neighbors in to the government. Because brainwashed ... well, the list is rather lengthy, but you get the idea. Gatekeeper

Scary thoughts. The teenagers of today are the voters, soldiers and workers of tommorrow.

-Jam

	18-05-2004 00:22									#100
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: The teenagers of today are the voters, soldiers and workers of tommorrow

Actually, the teenagers will soon be able to vote TODAY

	18-05-2004 00:26									#101
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

was it a bit harsh? perhaps. no offense.

quote: Sounds like someone who has never looked at a newspaper in the past 10 years. No offense, but seriously. Ever hear of Salman Pak, to name one.

yes, i have. but if you also check the newspapers over the past twenty, you'll see that all of nkorea's attempts to perform terrorism in skorea have failed because of security apparatus; that all the non-training examples that i've listed occured before 1990. besides, skorea's not truly needed american help to deal with nkorean security threats (covert, not military) for years now (with the exception of kim dae jung's gutting of the nsa).
besides, which i will admit might have been less discerning, the quote i listed was for my purposes less about the iraq training thing (which i know it did) and on the skorea thing.

quote: great accuse me of being a racist... great defense Q. Definitly love the fact that you can have differing opinion, but I can't.

how am i supposed to react when you assume that all skoreans do is ***** about americans being there? sure, it's a sizeable proportion of the youth. a sizeable proportion of the american populace doesn't want to be there in iraq, a sizeable portion of the iraqi populace doesn't want us there. should i thus assume that all iraqis do is ***** and whine at us for invading them and then occupying that desert? should i then, when referring to those who don't like us, say that "iraqis don't want us there" when i know full well that "iraqis" refers to more than that group?

was i a bit harsh? perhaps.

	18-05-2004 00:28									#102
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Personally I don't know why chemical weapons are consdiered WMD.

I didn't buy it pre invasion and the fact that one shell filled with Sarin doesn't make me all shocked and bothered.

My bigger concern was bio weapons falling into the hands of terrorists.

Chemical weapons don't have the oomph to be considered wmd in my book.

Interesting there hasn't been much play on the various strains of nasties found in the one Iraqi scientists home nor the human testing labs. 'Course that might be urban legend as well.

Last edited by Ogie Oglethorpe on 18-05-2004 at 00:34

	18-05-2004 00:32									#103
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: yes, i have. but if you also check the newspapers over the past twenty, you'll see that all of nkorea's attempts to perform terrorism in skorea have failed because of security apparatus; that all the non-training examples that i've listed occured before 1990. besides, skorea's not truly needed american help to deal with nkorean security threats (covert, not military) for years now (with the exception of kim dae jung's gutting of the nsa). besides, which i will admit might have been less discerning, the quote i listed was for my purposes less about the iraq training thing (which i know it did) and on the skorea thing.

Oh, misread... I was actually trying to give purpose to why we don't invade NK, and put my foot in my mouth... see Theben's sig.

quote: how am i supposed to react when you assume that all skoreans do is ***** about americans being there?

exactly. People are so quick to whine about things, and those who whine the loudest, whether they are the majority or not, are the ones that are heard. Sucks, and while you are defending the SK stance I am doing the same for the US stance. Still, no reason to throw names.

	18-05-2004 00:38									#104
	Tired of ads?

Japher: yeah, blame your lovely state for teenagers being able to vote!

	18-05-2004 00:39									#105
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Japher Ever hear of Salman Pak, to name one.

Aside from a defector produced by Chalabi, I haven't heard of any evidence linking Salman Pak to terrorism.

	18-05-2004 02:10									#106
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Don't advertize yourself. BTW, Iraq wasn't prevented from having SCUDs until after the first US-Iraq war. And guess what, we found no SCUDs. Evyerthing the Iraqis weren't supposed to have, they either didn't have or we close on the line (like their missiles that were designed to go 150 klicks when their fueled weight was accounted for, but if not, went further) and were destroyed.

Um, it's kinda obvious that they had SCUDs. What was hitting Israel, rocks from space?

	18-05-2004 02:12									#107
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by General Ludd I wouldn't consider WW2 recent history. But I would consider vietnam and agent orange recent history. And if you include things like napalm and cluster bombs, there's the gulf wars and afgahnistan.

Agent Orange != WMD. It's not supposed to kill people, it's supposed to kill plants.

Napalm != WMD. It's not a chemical weapon - the fire kills you. Otherwise, ANYTHING would be WMD.

Cluster bombs REALLY != WMD. They're frigging explosives.

Are you also going to claim that guns are WMD?

	18-05-2004 02:13									#108
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Um, it's kinda obvious that they had SCUDs. What was hitting Israel, rocks from space?

Iraq was hitting Israel with SCUDs in 2003? Oh right, you right-wingers are confusing 1991 with 2003.

Let me give you a little diagram to help you understand.


1991: SCUDS are not banned, Iraq has SCUDs.
2003: SCUDS are banned, Iraq does not have SCUDs.

See, very simple. Even a Texan can understand.

	18-05-2004 02:15									#109
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Iraq was hitting Israel with SCUDs in 2003? Oh right, you right-wingers are confusing 1991 with 2003.

Forgive Kuciwalker... he was like 2 in 1991.

	18-05-2004 02:23									#110
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

several observations -

1st- it's nice to see you back cybershy. You've been missed

2nd - It is untrue that Iraq had no links with international terrorism.

3rd - It is untrue that 'there is no war on terror'. There is. It's just not on CNN.

4th - the shell appears to be a military designed shell - not something that some terrorists could build. it was, as I realize, supposed to be created at launching or pre-launmching by mixing two materials. this seems to me like it could prevent "spoilage" and is not something your ordinary terrorist organization is capable of producing.

	18-05-2004 02:28									#111
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Iraq was hitting Israel with SCUDs in 2003?

It looked like you were talking about right after the first Gulf war.

	18-05-2004 02:37									#112
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Slowwhand made the observation that Iraq had banned weapons, specifically, SCUDs, and used them during the war. My point to him was that SCUDs were not banned until after the first war, and were not found in Iraq after the second war, and certainly hadn't been used during the war.

	18-05-2004 02:48									#113
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Agent Orange != WMD. It's not supposed to kill people, it's supposed to kill plants.

It's poison. They sprayed villages, jungles, and farmland with it

Put 2 and 2 together.

quote: Napalm != WMD. It's not a chemical weapon - the fire kills you. Otherwise, ANYTHING would be WMD.

My point was that it was an unconventional weapon, but what you just said is pretty silly. Guns don't kill you - bullets do.

quote: Cluster bombs REALLY != WMD. They're frigging explosives.

Again, my point was that aside from causing mass destruction they litter the scene with unexploded munitions that essentially act as land mines and as a result cause uncontrolable damage.

But are explosives not to be considered weapons of mass destruction? I guess nukes aren't, in that case. Or is it the radiation that makes them a WMD? ... maybe you can claim that guns are WMDs, when they use depleted uranium shells.

	18-05-2004 02:50									#114
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

NK has around a thousand artillery pieces pointed at Seoul, thats why nothing has been done to them. That is as good as a nuclear device, since the minute the fighting starts, a lot of South Koreans are going to die.

	18-05-2004 02:55									#115
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

More tests on the WMD apparently forthcoming:

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle....storyID=5169086

quote: Rumsfeld, responding to questions after a speech on Monday to the Heritage Foundation, a Washington think tank, said the testing could take some time. "I've seen intelligence on the matter you've raised. What you cited, I believe, was a field test, which is not perfect," he said. "What we ought to do is to get the samples someplace where they can be tested very carefully before coming to a conclusion as to precisely what it was." "We have to be careful. We can't take something that's inaccurate," Rumsfeld said. "So what we have to then do is track down and figure out ... what caused that to be there in this improvised explosive device? And what might it mean in terms of the risks to our forces, the risks to other people and any other implications that one might draw. And that's going to take some time."

	18-05-2004 02:55									#116
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by General Ludd It's poison. They sprayed villages, jungles, and farmland with it Put 2 and 2 together.

So the pesticides we spray on crops are also WMD?

Is suntan lotion WMD? It's toxic, and we spray it on people.

quote: My point was that it was an unconventional weapon, but what you just said is pretty silly. Guns don't kill you - bullets do.

My point was that it was not NBC - nuclear, biological, or chemical.

It's not particularly unconventional, anyways.

Besides, the definition of WMD is - get this - weapons of mass destruction. NBC weapons can all be used for that easily and efficiently. I don't know of any time napalm was dropped on an entire city (unless they used it in Dresden).

quote: Again, my point was that aside from causing mass destruction they litter the scene with unexploded munitions that essentially act as land mines and as a result cause uncontrolable damage.

They cause "mass destruction" in large quantities, like everything else.

Plus, have we even used cluster bombs in the past decade or two? I know we didn't use them in the first Gulf War.

quote: But are explosives not to be considered weapons of mass destruction? I guess nukes aren't, in that case.

By "explosive", I meant it in the sense that lots of combustion = big explosion, obviously.

quote: Or is it the radiation that makes them a WMD? ... maybe you can claim that guns are WMDs, when they use depleted uranium shells.

Nukes are WMD because they are a simple, efficient way of kill mass numbers of people (primarily innocents).

Given that, chemical weapons are not as "WMD-ish" as nuclear and biological weapons, but still are.

	18-05-2004 02:58									#117
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich So the pesticides we spray on crops are also WMD?

They frequently are when you spray them on people.

	18-05-2004 03:00									#118
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

OK, it's simple then. Agent Orange is not WMD. We were trying to kill frigging plants, not people.

	18-05-2004 03:00									#119
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich quote: Originally posted by General Ludd It's poison. They sprayed villages, jungles, and farmland with it Put 2 and 2 together. So the pesticides we spray on crops are also WMD? Is suntan lotion WMD? It's toxic, and we spray it on people.

So glad you do not realize the full extent of the ecological, economic, and demographic damage that the poisonous sprays did for South Vietnamese population.

	18-05-2004 03:06									#120
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich OK, it's simple then. Agent Orange is not WMD. We were trying to kill frigging plants, not people.

It was a chemical weapon. The purpose of that weapon was to turn sprayed areas into a desert. The fact that it kills people may have just been a "lucky" accident, but I doubt it. I think more likely, the U.S. didn't want to deal with international oprobrium for using chem weapons on humans.

Anyway, even if you ignore that, the U.S. recently sprayed Cuba with a type of plant scale that has infected their crops. In the 1970s, the U.S. infected the Cuban pig heards with Swine Fever, and a hlaf million animals had to be destroyed.