28-05-2004 11:34									#121
	Suffering from ads?

According to Tingkai, you can have a much lower tax rate, like Hong Kong. 10% was it?

	28-05-2004 11:40									#122
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I don't think I have ever said that Hong Kong has a good social net. It doesn't.

Personal income tax rate is max 16% which is too low. Singapore's is something like 22% and Mainland China is 33%.

Canada could switch to a simpler tax system (eliminate tax breaks while also reducing tax rates) and still keep a good social system.

	28-05-2004 11:42									#123
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

From what I recalled you were speaking generally positively about it, but the discussion was on taxes and other things more than social safety net.

	28-05-2004 11:47									#124
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by joncha 1. the taxes are, for the most part, just rolling back the tax-breaks the very wealthy have been handed over the past couple decades.

I'm waiting for the economists to rip into it, but it basically goes like this.

Businesses create jobs. Discourage business, kill jobs.

And our taxes were too high in comparison with our competition (the US) over the past 2 decades.

quote: 2. Martin, as finance minister, cut funding to social housing and social transfers to the provinces. That put a lot of people out into the street. You live on the street in a city like Toronto (especially if you're old or you're not in perfect health), there's a good chance you'll die. The amount of money needed to solve the homeless problem is such a small proportion of the budget, it is criminal that it's allowed to continue.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/election/na...xlay040527.html

quote: Cuts to Ottawa's affordable housing program were slashed by the Progressive Conservative government in its 1993 budget, and implemented by the Liberal government when it came to power that fall in an effort to reduce the deficit. Under pressure from cities, in 2001 the federal government committed $680 million for the affordable rental program. To date, less than half has been spent. Toronto's homeless problem became acute under Ontario's Progressive Conservative government, which slashed welfare rates and shut down the province's housing program in the mid-1990s, effectively killing the construction of 17,000 housing units.

quote: We've had a huge transfer of wealth from poor to rich over the last few decades, it's about time it started to go back the other way.

Good plan, until more people start taking their funds and moving to the States or the Caribbean.

	28-05-2004 11:51									#125
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

On the revenue side it is good. But there's lots of room [edit for Hong Kong] to increase the tax rate yet still stay competitive within the region.

I've argued that Canada should adopt this system with a goal of a neutral revenue effect where tax breaks are eliminated and tax rates are increased so that in the end people pay the same amount. Tax breaks are a great way of hiding corporate welfare.

In terms of Hong Kong, the civil servants are overpaid (top salaries are something like Cdn$500,000 a year) and they spend money like there's no tomorrow on completely useless things.

Those problems have to be addressed first before we pump more money into the system.

Last edited by Tingkai on 28-05-2004 at 11:56

	28-05-2004 11:55									#126
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I'm waiting for the economists to rip into it, but it basically goes like this. Businesses create jobs. Discourage business, kill jobs.

Higher taxes will not necessarily discourage businesses because:
a) Canadian business taxes are now lower than the US on average; and
b) The additional costs of doing business in Canada are lower (eg health insurance premiums for employees, security costs, etc).

We also have to look at the marginal effect. Some businesses might leave, but the overal benefits might still increase. It's just like if a business increases the price for its products. The number of products sold might drop, but the profit might increase.

	28-05-2004 11:59									#127
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai On the revenue side it is good. But there's lots of room [edit for Hong Kong] to increase the tax rate yet still stay competitive within the region. I've argued that Canada should adopt this system with a goal of a neutral revenue effect where tax breaks are eliminated and tax rates are increased so that in the end people pay the same amount. Tax breaks are a great way of hiding corporate welfare.

Geez, people love whacking the whacko righties when they propose just such measures.

	28-05-2004 12:03									#128
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Geez, people love whacking the whacko righties when they propose just such measures.

Whacko righties? You're being redundant.

Who has proposed this in Canada? And remember, I'm not talking about a system where everyone pays the same tax rate. A simple tax system can still use a progressive tax rate system.

	28-05-2004 12:10									#129
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Higher taxes will not necessarily discourage businesses because: a) Canadian business taxes are now lower than the US on average; and b) The additional costs of doing business in Canada are lower (eg health insurance premiums for employees, security costs, etc).

a) According to whom?

b) Hmmm. They have health, we have EI and CPP premiums among other things (like extra Health). Not sure where that all would come out.

The real problem isn't businesses uprooting and going south though. The real problem is capital picking up and going south. There is a large difference, but the effect on Canada is the same: fewer employed Canadians than there would have been.

quote: We also have to look at the marginal effect. Some businesses might leave, but the overal benefits might still increase. It's just like if a business increases the price for its products. The number of products sold might drop, but the profit might increase.

Only the NDP could see fewer new businesses and fewer jobs as a net plus.

	28-05-2004 12:20									#130
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Whacko righties? You're being redundant. Who has proposed this in Canada? And remember, I'm not talking about a system where everyone pays the same tax rate. A simple tax system can still use a progressive tax rate system.

Klein. And it isn't one tax rate for all. It is 0 for the first bit of income and then 10, or 15 if you wish, for everyone else. It would be a tax cut for most middle income people and an increase for the really rich with the $250 per hour accountants (since they would actually have to pay some).

	28-05-2004 12:21									#131
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither a) According to whom?

Them commies in the Alberta government.
Federal corporate tax rate
In Canada: 24.1%
In the US: 32.7%
See:
http://www.alberta-canada.com/economy/taxes.cfm

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The real problem isn't businesses uprooting and going south though. The real problem is capital picking up and going south. There is a large difference, but the effect on Canada is the same: fewer employed Canadians than there would have been.

Not necessarily. You're simply assuming that a tax increase would drive capital south and then you go ah ha, it's bad.

Where's your proof that it will drive capital out.

Remember also that the exchange rates compensates to some degree for differences in business costs

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Only the NDP could see fewer new businesses and fewer jobs as a net plus.

Come on, if we got rid of the minimum wage, salaries would fall and more low-paying jobs would be created. By why would Canadians want $1/hour jobs.

	28-05-2004 12:27									#132
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Have to resume tomorrow. G'night.

	28-05-2004 21:26									#133
	Reality Check Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Has Layton blown it already? 60 billion in increased-tax fueled spending? The Libs want 9 billion in spending, the NDP can go twice that and then tax for a further multiple of 3?

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Taxes are too high in Canada, given the massive surpluses the Liberals have been running for the last few years. That's the sport. If it moves, tax it! NYE, are you trying to sew up my sig? 60 billion is insane... what are the NDP thinking?

The NDP platform calls for 79 billion in increased spending over 5 years. 61 Billion will come from increased revenue, 9.5 billion in increased taxes, and 8.5 billion from better enforcement of existing tax laws. The Liberals have outlined 40 billion in new spending over 5 years 9 billion of which is allocated to health. The Conservative's platform is 89 billion over 5 years in new spending and tax cuts. In 2002/2003 (source) the federal government spent 133.3 billion on programs and 37.3 billion for interest payments on the national debt, for total spending of 170.6 billion. So 12 billion in new program spending (40% allocated to healthcare) represents a 9% increase (or 7% of total). The tax cuts introduced by the Liberals in 1999/2000 reduced tax revenue by 100 billion over 5 years. Did you notice your increased income? I doubt you will notice the NDP's 9.5 billion over 5 years tax increase either.

The Liberals have only run one massive surplus (1999/2000), all the others have been around 3 billion. They underestimate revenue at the beginning of the year and then near the end of the year when they have a good idea of what the final numbers will be they spend all but 3 billion.

	28-05-2004 21:49									#134
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Klein. And it isn't one tax rate for all. It is 0 for the first bit of income and then 10, or 15 if you wish, for everyone else. It would be a tax cut for most middle income people and an increase for the really rich with the $250 per hour accountants (since they would actually have to pay some).

If Ralphie was serious about this, I'd even vote for him.

	29-05-2004 07:12									#135
	Get a bigger avatar today!

this is my riding. I don't like Martin, but Harper and the conservatives, now that's even worse. The thing is, the liberals are more of the lesser of two evils. I don't see the NDP as having even a slim chance here.

Judging by 2000's results and what's been going on as of late, I'd say this place could end up being a good contest.

	29-05-2004 07:15									#136
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Since when is creating more bureaucracy and more politicians a good thing?

We are already paying through the nose for these politicians. We might as well put them to work.

Besides, like any good NDPer, why don't you support a larger bureaucracy alongside those higher taxes? Big can be beautiful.

	29-05-2004 07:43									#137
	Re: Reality Check Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Flinx The Conservative's platform is 89 billion over 5 years in new spending and tax cuts.

Where is that 89 billion from?

	29-05-2004 07:50									#138
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

You got me on the basic premise though. I only counted the Libs health spending for 9 billion. Twas getting late and I wanted to stir things up. Been alltogether too polite around here lately.

	29-05-2004 08:20									#139
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Them commies in the Alberta government. Federal corporate tax rate In Canada: 24.1% In the US: 32.7% See: http://www.alberta-canada.com/economy/taxes.cfm

You neglect to mention that corporate tax rates have been falling in general throughout the indutrialised world (except for the US) for the past several years, that the provincial rates in some provinces would drive that rate above the sited US rates even today after significant cuts to the federal rate, and that even Kerry is talking about cutting US corporate tax rates after the US has long been standing still on this issue.

Into this mix, you site one of the lowest tax jurisdictions in Canada, and suggest that everything would be hunky-dory if we started jacking tax rates while everyone else we compete against is lowering theirs.

How do you spell capital flight? 'N-D-P'

	29-05-2004 08:50									#140
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: a) Canadian business taxes are now lower than the US on average; and b) The additional costs of doing business in Canada are lower (eg health insurance premiums for employees, security costs, etc). We also have to look at the marginal effect. Some businesses might leave, but the overal benefits might still increase. It's just like if a business increases the price for its products. The number of products sold might drop, but the profit might increase.

That's part of the reason that Canada does so poorly. You also need to consider the fact that we are more inefficient than the US. Our workers are not as productive, ergo, it costs more to do business in Canada.

One thing about the high taxes is that they discourage increases in productivity and competitiveness. Why work hard when half your cash goes to the government?

	29-05-2004 09:04									#141
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Uhmmm, our corporate taxes have only been lower than the US for a year or two, or still aren't depending on which provinces you compare with which states.

Can you think of why the Canbuck might be trending up lately? Could it be that capital is coming here or staying here? Naww, no way!

	29-05-2004 09:45									#142
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Method this is my riding. I don't like Martin, but Harper and the conservatives, now that's even worse. The thing is, the liberals are more of the lesser of two evils. I don't see the NDP as having even a slim chance here. Judging by 2000's results and what's been going on as of late, I'd say this place could end up being a good contest.

Good contest?! The Conservatives are more than likely to win that riding.

	29-05-2004 10:18									#143
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

A good contest is where the Conservatives have no hope of winning?

	29-05-2004 10:22									#144
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

nice troll, nye

The key word is contest.

	29-05-2004 10:48									#145
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Likely to win is not a good contest, especially where the incumbant is a Liberal? How do you figure 'likely to win' in a specific riding against an incumbant, anyway?

I'd call that a contest, given the unpredictability of the percentage of combined Alliance-Tory votes. It ain't gonna be 100%. Not to mention that this election is the most volatile since '93.

Where's the troll?

	29-05-2004 10:57									#146
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The Conservative is likely to win that riding in a walk.

A contest implies a close race.

	29-05-2004 11:04									#147
	Support Apolyton

He says likely. You say likely. The fact remains that there is a Liberal incumbant and the battle for Ontario is far from over.

	29-05-2004 11:05									#148
	Put an end to popups!

In other words, I'll listen to the guy that lives there. It is a contest.

	29-05-2004 11:10									#149
	Support Apolyton

A Liberal incumbent that won by a grand total of 45 votes over the Alliance candidate in the last election.

I'd put money on a conservative cakewalk this time out.

	29-05-2004 11:10									#150
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Regarding the election prediction project.. It's an interesting riding by riding portrait, but I think that it muddles things more than they ever made clear.