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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Monk
SQUAWK!!!
Seriously, I don't like this plan, and I doubt the science behind it.
I admit to not knowing much about biochemistry, so when I have the opinion of two people I know who do, and are against it, one stridently so, I tend to believe them over a corporation whose very existance depends on the plan. |
One would think that if the diet were so fundamentally flawed that a college biology book would destroy it, the media would have let us know by now. They seem to relish destroying things even if there is only a minor inkling of something not right. I point you to the death of one Atkins, how played up was his weight, when he died from a head injury and had some infection in the hospital?
I'm sure you're friends are intelligent MM, but come on, if some undergrad could point out a flaw by looking in their textbooks, why hasn't a reputable source?
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Jon Miller
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I don't think that they are undergrads...
JM
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon Miller
I don't think that they are undergrads...
JM |
Then I would expect something more than a citation to a textbook.
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Odin
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Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:36
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
What is this bit about excess water?
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I think it's because muscle tissue has less water than fat tissue.
Boris, A. robustus was the size of a chimp. All australopithicines ate mostly fruits and veggies. The robusts ate fresh grass and roots while the graciles ate mostly leaves and fruit. Both did a little scavanging on the side. Our brains didn't start getting bigger until we were forced to scavange more as Africa got drier 2.5 million years ago.
So the vegans are full of BS. 
An interesting thing I've read is that much of the trouble with cholesterol is actually from stress. The stress hormone, cortisol, is made from cholesterol. The terms "good" and "bad" cholesterol are misleading. What we call good cholesterol, HDL, is the cholesterol-transporting enzyme when it is empty. LDL is when the enzyme is transporting cholesterol. Since cortisol is made from cholesterol, when you are under stress your LDL levels rise as your body makes more Cholesterol to make into cortisol.
Also, people who's ancestors ate lots of meat, like Europeans, cattle herding black africans, and north Asians, are more resistant to dietary cholesterol than people who's ancestors ate very little meat, like west africans/African Americans, New Gunieans and south Asians.
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The Mad Monk
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of Ice Cream
Mar 2000
time: 23:36
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quote:
Originally posted by gunkulator
Here is some research in support of Atkins. Like most research, these tend to be narrowly focused. I challenge Atkins-bashers to post similar published research in support of their views.
Comparing low fat and low carb, a Duke University study.
Another one, a University of Cincinnati study
And another, a University of Pennsylvania study
Low-carb and cholesterol, a Mayo Clinic study
There are many many more. I invite people to investigate for themselves what actual research has discovered instead of just taking some person's opinion on the matter. Frankly, one of the things that attracted me to the Atkins diet in the first place was the extensive bibliography of cited research. How many other diets have anything even close to this? |
...and we have our first answer, from another biochemist!
quote:
Originally posted by MDA
the first study was 24 weeks - six months.
Second study - six months.
Third study - one year "The low-carbohydrate diet produced a greater weight loss (absolute difference, approximately 4 percent) than did the conventional diet for the first six months, but the differences were not significant at one year."
Four stinking percent?
My biggest problem with the last study (one year): It states that a low carb diet is perfectly safe for obese people who are obese and have atherosclerosis. That doesn't necessarily extend to the general population.
None of these studies tell us anything about the consequences of remaining on a low carb diet in the long therm or on the effects long-term ketosis. Other human disorders DO tell us what the consequences are.
Here's one other short study in children
It's going to take long term studies to prove to some people just how safe or dangerous Atkins is. I already think its dangerous, but if others want to act as human guinea pigs to answer the question, good luck to them.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=12928468
"A high-fat ketogenic diet produced significant increases in the atherogenic apoB-containing lipoproteins and a decrease in the antiatherogenic HDL cholesterol. Further studies are necessary to determine if such a diet adversely affects endothelial vascular function and promotes inflammation and formation of atherosclerotic lesions."
Again, this study is too short to clearly answer the question of safety of this diet in children, but it suggests a connection between ketosis and atherosclerosis.
I'm supposed to be working. |
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Monk
...and I don't understand that. How is a textbook, which is undoubtedly put together by people who know what they're doing (PhDs), reviewed by other people who know what they're doing (other PhDs), and used by still others who know what they're doing (college professors), in a hard science, inferior to single papers written on short studies with small sample sizes?
The poster I've been repeating has taught biochemistry for the past two years, and is using textbook citations because they are convenient. |
In my experience, admittedly liberal arts intensive, text books are written by grad students, and are not peer reviewed at all, unless you consider profs using the books to be peer reviewing. Maybe they are different in the hard sciences, I don't know. That doesn't mean they aren't useful of course.
Secondly, text books, by virtue of covering a large area don't usually focus on specific areas, to the extent that scientific studies and papers can.
Thirdly, citing a text book that probably costs $100 dollars and would have to be ordered online to check the citation is a bit daft, wouldn't you say? Surely there is some knowledge more readily accessible.
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Not really. Text books in a hard science field, possibly excluding the really theoretical, esoteric stuff, all tend to say the same thing about any given subject, assuming they are contemporaries.
It's in the way they say it, how well they're geared toward instruction (as opposed to simply reference, I've used both), that makes them different. |
which makes it all the more strange to me, that if there was some basic scientific flaw in atkins, which the poster asserted, why it hasn't been hammered publicly.
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General Ludd
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Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Last Conformist
Where you lay the reference level for determining whether a given protein intake is high or low is in the final instance arbitrary |
My point exactly. Saying that a vegetarian diet is low on protein because it doesn't match the intake of a diet which has much more than you need is meangingless and misleading.
quote:
but it's a fact that while protein deficiencies are not uncommon among vegetarians, few meat-eaters suffer problems due to too much protein. |
Prove this.
If, as you say, a lack of protein kills and protein deficiences are not uncommon among vegetarians, why are we not all dropping dead?
And then you claim that too much protein is harmless. Too much of anything is bad. A protein excessive diet will stress out your organs, like any excessive intake will, and can lead to things like kidney stones.
quote:
People who exercise very hard often need protein supplements, despite being on "high protein" meat-inclusive diets. |
Yes, weight-lifters and serious athletes all eat highly regulated diets and often take supplements, regardless of eating meat or not. Your point?
quote:
Blaming the unhealthiness of fastfood on meat is absurd. |
I did not confine my statement to fastfood or try to blame it's unhealthiness on anything, I merely used it as an example of one meat-centric diet.
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Last Conformist
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of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by General Ludd
My point exactly. Saying that a vegetarian diet is low on protein because it doesn't match the intake of a diet which has much more than you need is meangingless and misleading. |
It's perfectly meaningful - it's low compared to some given standard - and only misleading to idiots.
I do not have the time to search for papers on the subject right now. However, do a quick search for veganism-related webpages, and you'll see that many of them warns for the possibility of experiencing protein deficiencies upon switching to a meat-free diet.
quote:
If, as you say, a lack of protein kills and protein deficiences are not uncommon among vegetarians, why are we not all dropping dead? |
 Because most of you are not below the survival line for protein?
quote:
And then you claim that too much protein is harmless. Too much of anything is bad. A protein excessive diet will stress out your organs, like any excessive intake will, and can lead to things like kidney stones. |
Granted, sufficent amounts of anything will kill you, by gravitation if nothing else. But show me a diet that's problem-free except it will kill you by too much protein.
quote:
Yes, weight-lifters and serious athletes all eat highly regulated diets and often take supplements, regardless of eating meat or not. Your point?
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That a meat-inclusive diet, that you label "high protein", does not contain sufficient amounts of protein for some people.
quote:
I did not confine my statement to fastfood or try to blame it's unhealthiness on anything, I merely used it as an example of one meat-centric diet. |
If putting the blame on meat isn't the point, what the heck is the purpose of bashing "meat-centric" diets in this thread?
What, btw, do you mean by "meat-centric"? Much fast-food is predominantly vegetable, after-all.
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04-06-2004 09:44
as long as you are healthy and don't have strange disorders.
It keeps you going, you don't have to worry about diseases and all that nasty stuff you get from meat, and it keeps you fit.
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