05-06-2004 23:55									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist It's perfectly meaningful - it's low compared to some given standard - and only misleading to idiots. I do not have the time to search for papers on the subject right now. However, do a quick search for veganism-related webpages, and you'll see that many of them warns for the possibility of experiencing protein deficiencies upon switching to a meat-free diet.

First of all, we are talking vegetarianism, not veganism. But yes, it's a common introductionary warning, although not at the alarmist level that you are presenting. It's neccisary advice to people who are unfamiliar with a vegetarian diet and think that they can eat a meat-eaters diet minus the meat. Once you are familair with vegetarian meals, rather than vegetarian side dishes, it's not an issue. And by the way, these introductionary warnings are usually acompanied by some joking at the "What!? But where do you get your protein!?!?" comments.

You seem to be forgeting that you're talking to a vegetarian. I've read alot of related litterature and I've lived the diet for 3 years. If you're going have me believe that I'm suffering from malnutrition or something, you're going to have to put alot more effort into it than that.

quote: Because most of you are not below the survival line for protein?

Wether it be death or sickness, explain to me why I and all the other poor, malnutritioned, vegetarians are perfectly healthy while supposedly suffering from protein defficiency.

quote: If putting the blame on meat isn't the point, what the heck is the purpose of bashing "meat-centric" diets in this thread?

I'm not bashing anything, you are the one who came here to bash the vegetarian diet. I was merely pointing out that vegetarianism is a healthy alternative to unhealthy diets.

quote: What, btw, do you mean by "meat-centric"? Much fast-food is predominantly vegetable, after-all.

Fast food = Hotdogs, Hamburgers, Pizza, and fries.

Pizza and fries are not neccisarily 'meat' but they typically are as far as fast food is concerned. (ie. cooked in animal fats and topped with meat)

It is only recently that any of the popular fast food joints have offered any vegetarian choices beyond a simple garden salad.

	05-06-2004 23:57									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue "This can be readily covered by supplementation with or without meat." Explain how..

Whey protein, amino acid, and other powders could easily covere 1 gram per pound of bodyweight, and that doesn't include the milk you're drinking it with.

The most efficient natural protein isn't meat, it's eggs- egg whites are chock ful o' protein. So are various beans and nuts. You can mix and match excellent sources of protein in the absence of meat.

	06-06-2004 00:04									#123
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quote: My biggest problem with the last study (one year): It states that a low carb diet is perfectly safe for obese people who are obese and have atherosclerosis. That doesn't necessarily extend to the general population.

Who's arguing it's a diet for the general population???

The problem with *******s like your friend, TMM, is they somewho seem to think that's it's safer to stay obese than it is to lose weight. Moron.

	06-06-2004 00:07									#124
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wrong thread . . .

Last edited by chegitz guevara on 06-06-2004 at 00:19

	06-06-2004 00:07									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist That a meat-inclusive diet, that you label "high protein", does not contain sufficient amounts of protein for some people.

This is another falsehood, by the way. You switch from talking about a general diet to the highly regulated and specialised one one of an athlete and present them as the same thing. Do the athletes who take protein supplements take in as much as the average person does from meat in their diet?

	06-06-2004 00:11									#126
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The problem with Kitty as with most career academics is that she's basing all of her information on studies without any real world experience.

Atkins works. Period.

	06-06-2004 00:42									#127
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Vegetarian proteins are usually incomplete and hence useless to the body. They have to be mixed in the correct ways, and given the laziness of people I know are vegetarians I doubt they do this, it takes intelligence too.

Of course there is no problem if protein is derived from eggs, cottage cheeses, etc.

	06-06-2004 05:49									#128
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd First of all, we are talking vegetarianism, not veganism. But yes, it's a common introductionary warning, although not at the alarmist level that you are presenting. It's neccisary advice to people who are unfamiliar with a vegetarian diet and think that they can eat a meat-eaters diet minus the meat. Once you are familair with vegetarian meals, rather than vegetarian side dishes, it's not an issue.

I'm not familiar with the expression "side dish", but assuming it's meant to indicate something secondary, this seems like an odd assertation - any normal meat-eater's diet, in my part of the world at least, consists primarily of vegetable material.

quote: You seem to be forgeting that you're talking to a vegetarian. I've read alot of related litterature and I've lived the diet for 3 years. If you're going have me believe that I'm suffering from malnutrition or something, you're going to have to put alot more effort into it than that.

What makes you believe I would care if you're malnutrioned?

quote: Wether it be death or sickness, explain to me why I and all the other poor, malnutritioned, vegetarians are perfectly healthy while supposedly suffering from protein defficiency.

Were you born stupid, or did you have to work hard at it? I didn't say that all vegetarians suffer from protein defficiency, but that protein defficiency is more common among vegetarians.

quote: I'm not bashing anything, you are the one who came here to bash the vegetarian diet. I was merely pointing out that vegetarianism is a healthy alternative to unhealthy diets.

So describing something as "polluting the body" isn't bashing it? Remember to warn me the next time you switch from English to Corporal Luddite.

quote: Fast food = Hotdogs, Hamburgers, Pizza, and fries. Pizza and fries are not neccisarily 'meat' but they typically are as far as fast food is concerned. (ie. cooked in animal fats and topped with meat)

Where I from, vegetable oil is usually used. A hamburger with dressing may be more than 50% vegetable by calories.

	06-06-2004 06:07									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist I'm not familiar with the expression "side dish", but assuming it's meant to indicate something secondary, this seems like an odd assertation - any normal meat-eater's diet, in my part of the world at least, consists primarily of vegetable material.

Meat is typically considered the center of a dish in western cuisine, and the vegetables are usually there to merely acompany it. Take a steak dinner with a side of mashed potatos and string beans. You can't remove the steak and have a meal - all you would have is a bit of mashed potatos and beans, not very complete. To complete it you could steam a variety of other vegetables - brocolli, peppers, peas, ect... make a lemon garlic sauce topping for it, and add parsnips to the mashed potatos and top them with toasted almonds.

Now you have a more complete meal with a large variety of different vegetables, roots, legumes and nuts.

quote: What makes you believe I would care if you're malnutrioned?

You came here voicing concern over vegetarians suffering from deficiencies.

quote: Were you born stupid, or did you have to work hard at it? I didn't say that all vegetarians suffer from protein defficiency, but that protein defficiency is more common among vegetarians.

Still waiting for you to prove it.

EDIT: And actually you did start of by contradicting my claim that vegetarianism is a healthy diet by saying that it leads to deficiencies. Are you taking that back, or are you just going to keep calling me names untill I stop pushing you to back it up?

quote: So describing something as "polluting the body" isn't bashing it? Remember to warn me the next time you switch from English to Corporal Luddite.

I don't think you can really claim to 'bash' fast food or unhealthy diets when there is nothing redeaming about them in the first place. But please yourself.

This is a diet thread, afterall.

quote: Where I from, vegetable oil is usually used. A hamburger with dressing may be more than 50% vegetable by calories.

That doesn't change the fact that it's unhealthy.

	06-06-2004 06:27									#130
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Meat is typically considered the center of a dish in western cuisine, and the vegetables are usually there to merely acompany it. Take a steak dinner with a side of mashed potatos and string beans. You can't remove the steak and have a meal - all you would have is a bit of mashed potatos and beans, not very complete.

Not a complete meal, but closer than what removing the vegetables would leave you at.

quote: You came here voicing concern over vegetarians suffering from deficiencies.

I did not voice concern. I said that among people I've known, the ones who've suffered from defficiencies have been vegetarians.

quote: Still waiting for you to prove it.

I'll see if I find the time to dig up references tomorrow.

quote: EDIT: And actually you did start of by contradicting my claim that vegetarianism is a healthy diet by saying that it leads to deficiencies. Are you taking that back, or are you just going to keep calling me names untill I stop pushing you to back it up?

Sooner or later, you'll accept that there's a difference 'tween causing something and increasing the risk for something. Far as I know, it's possible to concoct a perfectly healthy vegetarian diet, at least for adults. That does not contradict that vegetarian diets are more likely to lead to protein defficiencies.

quote: That doesn't change the fact that [fastfood is] unhealthy.

No-one said it did.

	06-06-2004 06:29									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Sava meat is good vegetarians are dumb. throw rocks at them.

I agree with Sava's post 100%.

	06-06-2004 06:30									#132
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd This is another falsehood, by the way. You switch from talking about a general diet to the highly regulated and specialised one one of an athlete and present them as the same thing.

Please point out to me where I did that?

quote: Do the athletes who take protein supplements take in as much as the average person does from meat in their diet?

The ones I've known, yes, if not more. No doubt there's a few ones who take in less.

	06-06-2004 06:44									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Sava meat is good vegetarians are dumb. throw rocks at them.

	06-06-2004 06:57									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Not a complete meal, but closer than what removing the vegetables would leave you at.

Well, yes, that's because vegetables are a neccesity while meat is decadency. But the point is how the food is treated in the meal... the vegetables are an after thought, or an acompanyment - a side to the 'heart'. A meal is not considered complete without a piece of meat - and it is present in nearly every meal of the day.

Hence the term "meat-centric"

quote: Sooner or later, you'll accept that there's a difference 'tween causing something and increasing the risk for something. Far as I know, it's possible to concoct a perfectly healthy vegetarian diet, at least for adults. That does not contradict that vegetarian diets are more likely to lead to protein defficiencies.

I don't agree with it being more likely. Nutrient wise a vegetarian diet should not have any more health concerns than a meat-eating diet. In eather one it's possible to have a defficiency if you eat stupidly and do not take in everything you should, but I do not see how you can claim that to be more likely to happen under vegetarianism than otherwise.

Perhaps an arguemant can be made that because of the emphasis our culture puts on meat-eating that there is often alot ignorance surrounding proper vegetarian diets, which then leads to people not eating correctly and developing defficiencies. And I could agree to that... although I don't think that's a fair critisism of the diet itself.

	06-06-2004 07:30									#135
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quote: Blaming the unhealthiness of fastfood on meat is absurd. A couple of the chief problems are transfats from vegetable oils and too much sodium, for which we owe thanks to the plant and mineral kingdoms, respectively.

"mineral" kingdom?

	07-06-2004 09:18									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Basically, little protein kills you, plenty of protein is no problem, unless there's something else seriously wrong with your diet (like no fat, or too high overall caloric intake).

Ever heard of gout?

Also, vegaterianism and even strict veganism is not a problem. Buddhist monks do quite well.