07-06-2004 18:36									#271
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A) Pay no attention to the Aussie behind the curtain.

B) Going bask to the asserted point that Reagan applied for membership in the communist party when in his 30's, during the Great Depression, speaks of why he should be considered an icon by present-day commies.

That is, it is entirely possible to recover from making a major mistake in thought process, and end up making contributions that actually better the world.
So don't give up on yourself after you screw the pooch.

	07-06-2004 18:56									#272
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quote: Actually it was Reagan who offered to cut nukes. At the Iceland Summit he offered to eliminate them altogether in a 4 eyes meeting - which shocked his own advisers as well as Gorbachev.

Both did. Gorby offered smaller cuts in both arsenals and that was a big negotiation, until Reagan dropped his (pardon the pun) bombshell on Gorbachev at Reykjavik.

	07-06-2004 19:03									#273
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident we were never remotely close to nuclear war btw.

You have no idea, actually. My buddy who worked on nukes told me that real alerts were very common, both because one side or the other would be buzzing the other and because of idiotic mistakes.

He told me one story of a guard in Dusseldorf who mistook a F-16 for a MiG and called it in, then began firing upon it. An F-16 in the area reported taking fire, and ground control put two and two together and assumed that the MiG was firing upon the F-16. Also, since this was near the Rhine, C&C was freaked that a Soviet jet made it that far, and scrambled all planes in Western Europe.

Now, imagine you're sitting in East Germany, and all of a sudden, every warplane in Western Europe goes into the air. What are you going to do?

That was just one incident.

	07-06-2004 19:08									#274
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quote: Originally posted by DanS 1984 was an awesome year. The US economy grew at a real 7.2%, the best since 1951.

Growth is typically very high coming out of a recession, even an engineered recession.

	07-06-2004 19:13									#275
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Actually it was Reagan who offered to cut nukes. At the Iceland Summit he offered to eliminate them altogether in a 4 eyes meeting - which shocked his own advisers as well as Gorbachev.

You have that reversed. Reagan offered to cut nukes, and Gorby said, let's get rid of all of them. Reagan accepted. Schultz was the voice of insanity and came back and said no. The Americans would not suggest such a thing as Warsaw conventional forces greatly outnumbered NATO.

	07-06-2004 19:31									#276
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I'm a mix of Gepap's 2 and 4. I have a certain nostalgia for the time since I was a young kid and my parents sure liked Ronnie. Objectively, I'm not a big fan of his policies. Even *if* his insane spending on the military helped speed the end of the Soviet Union, I'm still not sure it was money well spent. There is a shitload of dept lying around from his time, and are we really better off w/o the SU? People in the SU may be, and good for them (though it's certainly a mixed bag over there), but are we? I'm not so sure. I do cut him *some* slack on the mucking about in other people's countries, given that the Cold War was still on. It doesn't make those things magically ok, but I do view the CW as a different era, with somewhat different rules & priorities. Even with the slack, though, I'm not at all impressed with the Iran-Contra mess. I kinda liked the shot they took at Dubya's new best friend in Lybia, though. Too bad they missed.

-Arrian

	07-06-2004 19:34									#277
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Let's not forget Ron's actions on the 40th aniversary of D-Day

Laying a wreath in an SS cemetary.

	07-06-2004 19:44									#278
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I'll remember him as an average to good actor, and a friend of our(uk) dear Margret Thatcher(kinda joke about the dear bit ).
Jimmy Carter just seemed much more friendly to me - sort of like John Denver, but i got no idea what his policies were like.
Next to Bush, Reagan is not so bad.
But then the Devil was an angel once

	07-06-2004 19:47									#279
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor Next to Bush, Reagan is not so bad.

True, and so very, very frightening.

	07-06-2004 21:02									#280
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quote: Originally posted by the_ceebs Let's not forget Ron's actions on the 40th aniversary of D-Day Laying a wreath in an SS cemetary.

Took a man of courage to do that.

	07-06-2004 21:13									#281
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Brilliant? Everybody knew SDI didn't work, and wouldn't for the foreseeable future. That included the Soviets.

From former Foreign Minister of the Soviet Union, during an address at Princeton in 1993:

"There was one vital factor in the ending of the Cold War. It was Ronald Reagan's decision to go ahead with the Strategic Defense Initiative."


If the Soviets knew it wouldn't work, why did they consistently demand that the US give up any plans for a missile defense?

	07-06-2004 21:34									#282
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A few quotes as published by my newspaper, in attempt to capture Reagan's humor. [newspaper's disclaimer] His humor would be intentinal, but accidental is well[/disclaimer]

[my disclaimer ] I'm sorry if anything got lost in translation[/disclaimer]

quote: The attitude of government in regard to economics can be summarized as followes: If it moves: tax it. If it keeps on moving: regulate it. If it stops moving: subsidize it

quote: People say Politics is the second oldest profession. I've found out it appears to be very much like the oldest profession

quote: In English the most terryfying words are: "I'm from the government and I'm here to help"

quote: Politics is like showbusiness: first you have a great overture, then you just float around and you end with a great punch-line

quote: It's true: nobody has ever died from working hard. But why would I take the risk?

:evil grin:

quote: The waste produced by a nuclear power plant is easily stored in the empty space under a desk

quote: I'm not worried about our budget-deficit: it's big enough to take care of itself

	07-06-2004 21:37									#283
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quote: In English the most terryfying words are: "I'm from the government and I'm here to help"

It is based off the humor that whatever the government lays its hands on ends up in worse condition.

	07-06-2004 21:48									#284
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"An old Russian woman goes into Kremlin, gets an audience with Gorbachev and says, "In America anyone can go to the White House, walk up to Reagan's desk and say, 'I don't like the way you are running the country.'" Gorbachev replied, "You can do the same thing in the Soviet Union. You can go into the Kremlin, walk up to my desk and say 'I don't like the way Reagan is running his country.'"

	07-06-2004 21:49									#285
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Soviet Premier Gorbachev's three predecessors Brezhnev, Andropov and Chernenko had all died during Reagan's first four years in office. Whenever Reagan was asked why he had waited so long for a summit with the Soviets, he would reply, "They kept dying on me."

	07-06-2004 21:51									#286
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"It seems that they were having some trouble with speeders in the Soviet
Union, even though they don't have automobiles. So, an order was issued
that everyone, no matter who it was, caught speeding got a ticket. And one
day, General Secretary Gorbachev was coming out of his country home. He's
late getting to the Kremlin. So, he told his driver to get in the backseat
and he'd drive. And down the road he went, past two motorcycle policemen.
One of them took out after him. In just a few minutes, he was back with his
buddy. And the buddy said, "Well, did you give him a ticket?" And he said,
"No." He said, "You didn't? Why not? We're supposed to give everyone a
ticket." He said, "No, he was too important." "But", he said, "who was
it?" "Well," he said, "I couldn't recognize him. But his driver was
Gorbachev.""

	07-06-2004 21:52									#287
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quote: Originally posted by germanos A few quotes as published by my newspaper, in attempt to capture Reagan's humor. [newspaper's disclaimer] His humor would be intentinal, but accidental is well[/disclaimer] [my disclaimer ] I'm sorry if anything got lost in translation[/disclaimer] quote: The attitude of government in regard to economics can be summarized as followes: If it moves: tax it. If it keeps on moving: regulate it. If it stops moving: subsidize it quote: People say Politics is the second oldest profession. I've found out it appears to be very much like the oldest profession quote: In English the most terryfying words are: "I'm from the government and I'm here to help" quote: Politics is like showbusiness: first you have a great overture, then you just float around and you end with a great punch-line quote: It's true: nobody has ever died from working hard. But why would I take the risk? :evil grin: quote: The waste produced by a nuclear power plant is easily stored in the empty space under a desk quote: I'm not worried about our budget-deficit: it's big enough to take care of itself

And this line:

"A recession is when your neighbor loses his job, a depression is when you lose your job,and a recovery is when jimmy carter loses his job".

And Reagan had one of the best debate come backs ever:

"I will not make age an issue in this campaign. I will not exploit for political gain my opponent's youth and inexperience."

	07-06-2004 22:10									#288
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident american will not collapse on its own. We may be defeated by terrorists using nuclear weapons, but not of our own accord.

Why would terrorists use nuclear weapons? The point of terrorism is to terrify into doing your thing -- the way 9/11 terrified Bush into helping Osama by deposing Iraq's secular government and moving out forces blasphemously stationed in the holy Saudi Arabia -- and not to wipe out.

Nuclear weapons are useless as far as terrorists are concerned. They may be delusional, but they are still rational.

	07-06-2004 22:14									#289
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Oh great, another Rooseveltphile claiming FDR won the Second World War. Like that invalid could accomplish anything. Hey! That's surprisingly easy to do. And too think Sava's been having all the fun!

Uhm, Stalin's hellhole won the war. Look at the post-war map if you don't believe me. All that FDR accomplished was a small feint in western europe.

	07-06-2004 22:19									#290
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small feint

	07-06-2004 22:21									#291
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I will remember Reagan for helping to create appalling living conditions in Central American countries (mass murdering, extreme poverty, plutocracy). I will also remember Reagan for being one of the many individuals who was in a position of power and responsibility to take effective action against AIDS when people theorized as early as 1981 or 1982 that AIDS was a sexually transmitted disease. Yet he did too little too late, not because no one knew anything about this disease, but because people did know what this disease was, and he did not care. I will also remember Reagan for widening the gap of wealth between the American upper class and working class Americans. I will also remember Reagan for being finiancially irresponsible by increasing spending in national defense programs while cutting spending for other, important domestic areas such as health, education, welfare, and so on. I will also remember Reagan for being involved in the Iranian Contra scandal.

you're wrong on all those accounts.

next

	07-06-2004 22:27									#292
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quote: Originally posted by Verto quote: In English the most terryfying words are: "I'm from the government and I'm here to help" It is based off the humor that whatever the government lays its hands on ends up in worse condition.

I find it offensive that somebody (like Reagan) who has such contempt for government became the leader of it. I'm disappointed that conservatives hate the product of Democracy. You would figure people with such nationalistic zeal would have more faith in their government. Personally, I feel government can be an enormously important tool to better people's lives. It's a shame conservatives have such contempt for something with the potential to do so much good.

	07-06-2004 22:29									#293
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goverment is a tool alright.

	07-06-2004 22:29									#294
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Why do I even bother reading your posts anymore? You've REALLY slipped, Sava. What's going on with you, eh?

-Arrian

	07-06-2004 22:36									#295
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Why do I even bother reading your posts anymore? You've REALLY slipped, Sava. What's going on with you, eh? -Arrian

actually, that was intended to be more of a revelation of my opinions about government than an actual troll...

	07-06-2004 22:41									#296
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I find it offensive that somebody (like Reagan) who has such contempt for government became the leader of it. I'm disappointed that conservatives hate the product of Democracy. You would figure people with such nationalistic zeal would have more faith in their government. Personally, I feel government can be an enormously important tool to better people's lives. It's a shame conservatives have such contempt for something with the potential to do so much good.

You aren't even trying.

Ronald Reagan:

"It is not my intention to do away with government. It is rather to make it work -- work with us, not over us; stand by our side, not ride on our back. Government can and must provide opportunity, not smother it; foster productivity, not stifle it."

	07-06-2004 22:43									#297
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo quote: Originally posted by Verto Oh great, another Rooseveltphile claiming FDR won the Second World War. Like that invalid could accomplish anything. Hey! That's surprisingly easy to do. And too think Sava's been having all the fun! Uhm, Stalin's hellhole won the war. Look at the post-war map if you don't believe me. All that FDR accomplished was a small feint in western europe.

Yes, a small feint that drew away German manpower from the Eastern Front, thus allowing the Soviets to take the offensive in the first place.

	07-06-2004 22:45									#298
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quote: Originally posted by Verto You aren't even trying. Ronald Reagan: "It is not my intention to do away with government. It is rather to make it work -- work with us, not over us; stand by our side, not ride on our back. Government can and must provide opportunity, not smother it; foster productivity, not stifle it."

If I were trying to troll, I would've said, "conservatives hate America because they hate government" or something to that effect.

	07-06-2004 22:45									#299
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Yes, a small feint that drew away German manpower from the Eastern Front, thus allowing the Soviets to take the offensive in the first place.

and he conveniently forgets the southern front. and africa.

Let's face it, the soviets couldn't do **** until we showed up.

	07-06-2004 23:30									#300
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Whoda thunk the rememberances of Reagan would cleave along ideological lines? Color me shocked!