08-06-2004 00:48									#31
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Defiant Not like you do any personal attacks on Bush, glad we got that debating feature out of t he way, I was worried.

As I've said before on these forums, I don't deny my tendency to let loose with insults. The thing is though, I offer facts AND I insult. The right (especially in the case of Moore) just offer insults.

Verto: We've had that discussion. Moore countered his criticts. And you are still defiant in the face of fact and reality.

	08-06-2004 00:50									#32
	Inflate your Upload Space

I make over 20,000 and absolutely under 200,000 and I have gotton tremendous help from Bush's tax breaks and everybody in my neighborhood as well, I don't know where the hell you are getting your numbers that only people making over two hundredM are the only ones better off, need to check your souces.

	08-06-2004 00:51									#33
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Sava That's utter nonsense Diss. Under the Gore's 2000 tax plan, people under $200,000 would be paying less than what they are paying under Bush. Remember Clinton's 1993 budget? It raised the top income bracket while offering small cuts to other income brackets. Pay attention to the facts Diss, not Repuke propaganda. And Bush's deficit spending is the same as raising taxes. That money has to be paid back somehow. And that means increasing government revenue by raising taxes. You should be upset at Bush for irresponsible spending. Each dollar wasted is a dollar that has to be paid back. And with Repukes in power, you can bet that the poor and middle class will be paying off those debts while the rich enjoy tax cuts and corporations enjoy tax breaks (in addition to the tax evasion that goes unprosecuted).

I am upset over defecit spending. Bush's education plan and prescription drug plan was a waste of money.

Tax cuts should be followed by decreases in goverment spending.

	08-06-2004 00:54									#34
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Defiant I make over 20,000 and absolutely under 200,000 and I have gotton tremendous help from Bush's tax breaks and everybody in my neighborhood as well, I don't know where the hell you are getting your numbers that only people making over two hundredM are the only ones better off, need to check your souces.

Just wait until Bush's debt has to be paid off. You may have enjoyed the $400 tax rebate... but it's not worth the cost in increased health care costs, increased education costs, and increased state and local cases (which is occuring due to lack of federal funding, like No Child Left Behind for instance... states are suing the federal government for funds).

But then again, I don't expect you to be informed about all this.

	08-06-2004 00:56									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: it certainly isn't in their interests to ban abortion or gay marriage.

Why not? They have moral beliefs, so it is in their interests to have them carried out.

	08-06-2004 00:56									#36
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Sava's true concern for his fellow man is highlighted quite eloquently by his absence from Ogie's thread. He's been online for almost two hours and can't be bothered with a mere "...". Typical.

	08-06-2004 00:58									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

However, I expect that situation to be rectified shortly, thereby proving my point.

	08-06-2004 01:00									#38
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Sava's true concern for his fellow man is highlighted quite eloquently by his absence from Ogie's thread. He's been online for almost two hours and can't be bothered with a mere "...". Typical.

and that has what to do with Michael Moore?

I didn't see it... sue me...

but I'm sure typing in three dots is going to make a hell of beans... any words of mine would surely ring hollow to Ogie considering his loss.

I think you need to get a list of all the Poly members and go around scolding them for not participating in a thread. Get a clue.

	08-06-2004 01:02									#39
	Support Apolyton

Naw, just the more self-righteous ones. Good idea though.

	08-06-2004 01:02									#40
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Contrary to your beliefs, again we are very familiar with our local, county and state taxes which are fine, and for your information, health costs have been going tremendously high no matter what creature is in the white house, and liberals have spent more on education than anybody and the reults have been less than satisfactory, throwing money at something doesn't automatically make the problem go away.
And with any luck Bush will pay off the debt with inflated dollars, and BTW who really gives a **** about the debt, the economy is really starting to run and if it keeps up then more tax money is generated, to pay off your precious debt.
The attacks on Bush to me sound awfully familiar to the attacks in Iraq, as the move towards their own June 30th turnover the attacks are going up. As the economy gets better, and the Iraq war fading to the back of the news now all leading up to the November election your liberals are working hard to find crap to bin on Bush. Your information ammunititon is becoming less and less. You are really worried about the debt, c'mon, is that all you got left?

	08-06-2004 01:09									#41
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: the economy is really starting to run and if it keeps up then more tax money is generated, to pay off your precious debt.

that is the biggest fallacy... look at the reagan years (considering his death has brought his 'legacy' to the forefront)... tax receipts increased because of the 14 tax increases reagan was responsible for, his '81 tax cuts cut revenue. During the CLinton years (after the 1993 budget raised the top marginal tax rate) tax receipts grew due to economic growth despite the right's assertions that raising taxes would destroy the economy. I'm sure you probably believe in "voodoo economics"

Go take an economics class, read some books (I have a decent reading list if you are interested), and learn about what is going on in the government.

The problem with the Democrats (and liberals) is that they rely too much on facts and the truth. They don't pander to the dumb. And in America, you can't win an election if you don't pander to the dumb.

quote: You are really worried about the debt, c'mon, is that all you got left?

Yes... over $7,000,000,000,000 in debt is something to worry about.

The Outstanding Public Debt as of 07 Jun 2004 at 08:08:44 PM GMT is: $7,218,481,554,772.13

	08-06-2004 01:18									#42
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Sava that is the biggest fallacy... look at the reagan years (considering his death has brought his 'legacy' to the forefront)... tax receipts increased because of the 14 tax increases reagan was responsible for, his '81 tax cuts cut revenue. During the CLinton years (after the 1993 budget raised the top marginal tax rate) tax receipts grew due to economic growth despite the right's assertions that raising taxes would destroy the economy. I'm sure you probably believe in "voodoo economics" Go take an economics class, read some books (I have a decent reading list if you are interested), and learn about what is going on in the government. The problem with the Democrats (and liberals) is that they rely too much on facts and the truth. They don't pander to the dumb. And in America, you can't win an election if you don't pander to the dumb. Yes... over $7,000,000,000,000 in debt is something to worry about. The Outstanding Public Debt as of 07 Jun 2004 at 08:08:44 PM GMT is: $7,218,481,554,772.13

You know Sava, it is really easy saying how the economy is going to go bad, of coarse it will sometime in the future, but you guys have no idea, talk about taking a econ class, why don't you tell me what's wrong the the surge in the economy that a economists that I have read in the news both CNN and FOX said the outlook is positive. 1.3 million jobs created from 2.0 lost duing the .com in March'01 and tower falling in sep'01.
Again, Debt, big deal, this country on an asset to liability ratio is still to the positive, again big flipping deal. Tell me exactly how the debt will hurt me, I will tell you, somehow jerkoff liberal like Kerry getting into the White House and freak out and raise taxes like a jackass, that would do it. And getting transparent jobs in the 90's like Clinton got that finally busted in March 2001 is now proud moment for you slick williers.

	08-06-2004 01:21									#43
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Besides, how about stop spending, the ONE critic I have of Bush is he is spending too much money on crap, cut it out, 10B to Africa, 3B to Israel, these in themselves aren't large but if you add up all the crap, it is monumental. Someone really needs to decifer between the crap and needs and make the cuts.

	08-06-2004 01:26									#44
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: I will tell you, somehow jerkoff liberal like Kerry getting into the White House and freak out and raise taxes like a jackass, that would do it.

yes... god forbid we see tax raises on the top bracket like in 1993 followed by the greatest economic expansion in the history of humanity... did you sleep through the nineties? or was your brain turned to mush by listening to Rush during that time?

	08-06-2004 01:28									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Defiant: What did your tax rebate help you do? And more importantly, will that one-time gift help you at all in the long term? And, even more importantly, will it help you enough in the long term that you won't care about your children's education, your social security, your family's health, etc etc etc.

	08-06-2004 01:28									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Defiant Besides, how about stop spending, the ONE critic I have of Bush is he is spending too much money on crap, cut it out, 10B to Africa, 3B to Israel, these in themselves aren't large but if you add up all the crap, it is monumental. Someone really needs to decifer between the crap and needs and make the cuts.

And we can start by having a president who won't fight unnecessary wars... or a president who won't tolerate companies like Halliburton stealing taxpayer money... or a president who is serious about cutting out corporate tax loops and prosecuting tax evasion.

	08-06-2004 01:34									#47
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Defiant: What did your tax rebate help you do? And more importantly, will that one-time gift help you at all in the long term? And, even more importantly, will it help you enough in the long term that you won't care about your children's education, your social security, your family's health, etc etc etc.

FAB,
It not just a one time, my Fed taxes are lower the four hundred came as a catch up to the previous year, which the tax cuts were instituted. I spent it like a good American to get this country going, like it seems to be.
First of all a child's eduction, what are you referring to, there will always be education, I have one in college, freshman in HS and one in diaper school, I guess I don't get your point here. SS will always be an issue and the sooner we are able to privitize it the better, by law you still put money away, but it is like a 401K instead of letting the gov't handle it for you, not for them to mess with. Health care is the biggest promblem this country is facing, however neither side is coming up with a legit solution, really a moot point against tax cuts.

	08-06-2004 01:38									#48
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Sava And we can start by having a president who won't fight unnecessary wars... or a president who won't tolerate companies like Halliburton stealing taxpayer money... or a president who is serious about cutting out corporate tax loops and prosecuting tax evasion.

I believe it is a just war and will cost us less in the long run, not only in monies but lives. I have given you my points on this no need to re-iterate again. Haliburton is now under investigation(and any company breaking rules and laws) and I am all for people closing tax loop holes, my opinion that is breaking the law, however I have really never seen any President actively go after it. I would says turn the "DAWGS OF WAR LOOSE"(IRS) with real powers or go to a flat tax with no deductions or loop holes of any sort.

	08-06-2004 01:44									#49
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Sava yes... god forbid we see tax raises on the top bracket like in 1993 followed by the greatest economic expansion in the history of humanity... did you sleep through the nineties? or was your brain turned to mush by listening to Rush during that time?

It hurts if the expansion is a fasad, NASDAQ going from 5000 to 2000 in a hurry and what did the DOW do, something like 11,000 to 7,000. When you expand to fast or without merit you are setting yourself up for a MARCH 2001. If you can't see that, what is between your ears isn't brain matter.

	08-06-2004 01:47									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

much of that economic expansion was fuelled by the internet and the general public buying computers like crazy. It eventually peaked as it had to do eventually.

And this boom was independent of the person in office. It just so happened that the tax increases really had no effect on the economy. The american economy was expanding so rapidly, it didn't matter.

	08-06-2004 01:48									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Defiant FAB, It not just a one time, my Fed taxes are lower the four hundred came as a catch up to the previous year, which the tax cuts were instituted. I spent it like a good American to get this country going, like it seems to be. First of all a child's eduction, what are you referring to, there will always be education, I have one in college, freshman in HS and one in diaper school, I guess I don't get your point here. SS will always be an issue and the sooner we are able to privitize it the better, by law you still put money away, but it is like a 401K instead of letting the gov't handle it for you, not for them to mess with. Health care is the biggest promblem this country is facing, however neither side is coming up with a legit solution, really a moot point against tax cuts.

1.) You may have spent your 400 like a good American, but do you feel that those who got 40,000 back did the same? If you do, you're severly shoving your head in the sand. They get their money back and we suffer because less money is able to go around to all the important programs that taxes support.

2.) You completely misunderstand the education issues, maybe sand in your eyes. I know education will always be there. That's not the issue...the issue is the QUALITY of the education. Having been through the Wisconsin education system, where we went to school in a decrepit building whose classrooms were really one large room with deviders, unsafe playgrounds, teachers fired consistently for not being up to par, and had an art room in the basement bathroom, I know what lack of education funding can do. Having then moved to Massachusetts and gone through that system, I know the difference of the two.

A lack of education funding is horrible for your kids and my kids. Greed for a small tax break only leads to a poorer education, fewer opportunities, and a public that, wouldn't you know it, sticks its head in the sand.

	08-06-2004 02:00									#52
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous 1.) You may have spent your 400 like a good American, but do you feel that those who got 40,000 back did the same? If you do, you're severly shoving your head in the sand. They get their money back and we suffer because less money is able to go around to all the important programs that taxes support. 2.) You completely misunderstand the education issues, maybe sand in your eyes. I know education will always be there. That's not the issue...the issue is the QUALITY of the education. Having been through the Wisconsin education system, where we went to school in a decrepit building whose classrooms were really one large room with deviders, unsafe playgrounds, teachers fired consistently for not being up to par, and had an art room in the basement bathroom, I know what lack of education funding can do. Having then moved to Massachusetts and gone through that system, I know the difference of the two. A lack of education funding is horrible for your kids and my kids. Greed for a small tax break only leads to a poorer education, fewer opportunities, and a public that, wouldn't you know it, sticks its head in the sand.

That is probably the most incorrect statement I have heard, I am from Wisconsin(central), attended the always 1, 2 or 3 highest populated school in the state and then on to a University here and the education is not lacking in way or form that I see. Besides, as well as you know HS and below is mostly funded by your property taxes with Fed grants.
YES, I believe most did spend their money and fueled with low interest rates, many refinanced their homes to a 15 year or lower so in the years to come a good portion will own their home and be able to spend more money to the economy instead of paying mortgages for the other would be 15 years on a 30 mortgage.
It looks like to me as soon as you got to MASS your head went into the sand, or are you natually a gloom and doomer.

What exactly are the important programs? I sure as hell see a lot of wasted money in our school system that could be diverted to more positive programs or lowering of the property taxes.

	08-06-2004 02:03									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Dissident much of that economic expansion was fuelled by the internet and the general public buying computers like crazy. It eventually peaked as it had to do eventually. And this boom was independent of the person in office. It just so happened that the tax increases really had no effect on the economy. The american economy was expanding so rapidly, it didn't matter.

All that was important with those companies were sales not profits which eventually bursted the bubble in March of 2001.

	08-06-2004 02:07									#54
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

You obviously went to school at a different time. When I was in school in Wisconsin for 5 years, it was disgusting how underfunded we were. You can't tell me that we weren't, because we were. My parents were so sick of it that my mom ran for (and got elected to) the school board simply so that we could find ways first-hand to help the schools including asking the government for more funding.

I am no "gloom and doomer", simply because I've seen first hand what better funding for education actually does

	08-06-2004 02:13									#55
	Tired of ads?

The intellectual worth of the movie is shown by the fact that it contains willful distortions in both the trailer and movie itself.

	08-06-2004 02:14									#56
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Hell, the entire "censorship" controversy was itself a willful distortion. You expect any better from MM?

	08-06-2004 02:16									#57
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Not really. It was meant as bait for Sava.

	08-06-2004 02:16									#58
	Remove this text

Defiant... I'm talking about Real GDP figures... not the Dow Jones or Nasdaq.

from Economic History Services: http://eh.net/hmit/gdp/gdp_answer.php

quote: (in billions) 1980 $5,161 1981 $5,291 1982 $5,189 1983 $5,423 1984 $5,813 1985 $6,053 1986 $6,263 1987 $6,475 1988 $6,742 1989 $6,981 1990 $7,112 1991 $7,100 1992 $7,336 1993 $7,532 1994 $7,835 1995 $8,031 1996 $8,328 1997 $8,703 1998 $9,066 1999 $9,470 2000 $9,817 2001 $9,866 2002 $10,080

From 1993 to 2000 (the Clinton years) Real GDP grew from $7.532 trillion to $9.817 trillion. A growth of $2.285 trillion... the largest growth in an 8 year period of GDP in the history of mankind. The Reagan years, as you can see, saw about $1.5 trillion in Real GDP growth. Note that after 1981 (and the massive tax cuts) the GDP SHRUNK! Also note that GDP growth slowed after 2000. The first year of the Bush presidency (when the recession started in MARCH of 2001, so Bush didn't "inherit" a recession), saw slow, but not negative growth. So your "burst bubble" theory is more about the stock market. The GDP, not the stock market, is the number to look at when talking about the economy.

I'm available to educate you further if necessary.

	08-06-2004 02:17									#59
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Not really. It was meant as bait for Sava.

Ahhh. Have fun!

	08-06-2004 02:55									#60
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Defiant I believe it is a just war and will cost us less in the long run, not only in monies but lives.

i see. so not fighting a war results in more dead people and money spent. i would have never thought that! please educate me more in right wing ignorance oh great one.