10-06-2004 03:31									#121
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The president should be briefed by the man with ALL the facts. If the organization we have in the CIA etc. isn't good enough to get all the facts, though, its hard to punish the messenger.

On the subject though, I agree that the Patriot act is absolutely 100% unconstitutional and was thrown under our noses in a highly emotional time when noone was thinking straight anyway. I can only hope that it is possible to repeal that act.

	10-06-2004 03:33									#122
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quote: Originally posted by ghen The president should be briefed by the man with ALL the facts. If the organization we have in the CIA etc. isn't good enough to get all the facts, though, its hard to punish the messenger.

Exactly. And the more bureaucracy, the less efficient things are going to be. That's why it's the CIA Director's job to brief the president.

	10-06-2004 03:35									#123
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Why would the CIA director have "all the facts" more than the aformentioned flunky with a script? Especially given the fact that the CIA director doesn't personally oversee everything that goes on in the CIA, anyway?

	10-06-2004 03:38									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Why would the CIA director have "all the facts" more than the aformentioned flunky with a script? Especially given the fact that the CIA director doesn't personally oversee everything that goes on in the CIA, anyway?

Here's a scenario for ya Mr. Wizard.

You are diagnosed with cancer. Would you rather the doctor tell you about it? or some flunky with a script?

What if the President has questions? What if there is something in the "script" that isn't clear enough. Would you rather talk to the expert, the big kahuna? or some dumb flunky?

Like I said before... I'm glad that you have such low standards for national security.

And if there's a god, you'll never be responsible for anything involving human life.

	10-06-2004 03:40									#125
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quote: You are diagnosed with cancer. Would you rather the doctor tell you about it? or some flunky with a script?

False analogy. The question is, would I rather have the director of the hospital tell me about it, or some flunky with a script? Obviously the actual doctor who diagnosed me would be best, but he's not one of the choices.

Similarly, Tenet is not the one who does 99.9% of the actual work at the CIA.

	10-06-2004 03:42									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich quote: You are diagnosed with cancer. Would you rather the doctor tell you about it? or some flunky with a script? False analogy. The question is, would I rather have the director of the hospital tell me about it, or some flunky with a script? Obviously the actual doctor who diagnosed me would be best, but he's not one of the choices. Similarly, Tenet is not the one who does 99.9% of the actual work at the CIA.

You live in a strange little world.

	10-06-2004 03:46									#127
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George Tenet is going to get his facts from underlings, who will be the true experts on the matter. Tenet will only know so much as he is briefed on.

quote: George Tenet testified that he didn't brief the president during the entire month of August because, "He was in Crawford, I was in Washington." Talk about incompentence.

Nothing prevented Tenet from communicating with Bush, either directly or indirectly.

quote: So is Air Force One, but do you think he should spend his time flying around the country away from his cabinet, lawmakers, ambassadors, much of the press, etc etc etc, along with looking less like a President and more like a corrupt CEO.

I am simply making the point that Bush is fully capable of performing his duties, whether it be at the White House or Crawford. Only the whiney extremists on the left will try to act as if Bush is unable to do anything except chop wood at Crawford.

	10-06-2004 03:48									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich quote: You are diagnosed with cancer. Would you rather the doctor tell you about it? or some flunky with a script? False analogy. The question is, would I rather have the director of the hospital tell me about it, or some flunky with a script? Obviously the actual doctor who diagnosed me would be best, but he's not one of the choices. Similarly, Tenet is not the one who does 99.9% of the actual work at the CIA.

In that analogy there is noone to talk to for you.. there is no one person who does 99.9% of the research that Bush can talk to. Tenet is the best alternative because he controls (or is supposed to) 100% of the research. The director in a hospital by comparison is a businessman trying to run a business.

	10-06-2004 03:48									#129
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I love listening to the moronic blather of Bush apologists. Some Americans hold their leaders to a higher standard. Some Americans believe in accountability. And some Americans believe in supporting a moron. I just hope to more Americans have to die because of Bush's incompetence.

edit re:Verto

	10-06-2004 03:50									#130
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I'd be a republican if Bush was something else.

	10-06-2004 03:50									#131
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Ah. So anyone who disagrees with you is 1.) moronic, 2.) blathering, 3.) a Bush apologist. Makes sense to me.

	10-06-2004 03:53									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Sava You live in a strange little world.

Yes, reality is strange, isn't it? I mean, one in which the chiefs of large bureaucracies don't personally oversee the entire work of their bureaucracy...

	10-06-2004 03:53									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Ah. So anyone who disagrees with you is 1.) moronic, 2.) blathering, 3.) a Bush apologist. Makes sense to me.

Actually... someone who is apologizing for Bush's failure and making excuses...

is...

well...

moronic...

blathering...

and a Bush apologist.

	10-06-2004 03:54									#134
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I didn't say that =) I'm totally innocent here!

	10-06-2004 03:55									#135
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Where have I "apologized for Bush's failures? I have simply made the statement that the Crawford Ranch has the technology necessary for Bush to perform his duties as POTUS.

I have also made the statement that Tenet would only be as qualified to debrief Bush as he was first briefed by his underlings, the true experts in the field.

	10-06-2004 04:01									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Where have I "apologized for Bush's failures? I have simply made the statement that the Crawford Ranch has the technology necessary for Bush to perform his duties as POTUS. I have also made the statement that Tenet would only be as qualified to debrief Bush as he was first briefed by his underlings, the true experts in the field.

You're making excuses for Bush's failures. And quite frankly, you'd be attacking the President if it were Bill Clinton... I have not a doubt in my mind.

That's the difference between you and me... I attack failure and incompetence regardless of politics. You make excuses when it's your boy in there. I just hope that come November, more Americans will vote for accountability, and not excuse this incompetent administration. Because our very lives may be at stake.

	10-06-2004 04:03									#137
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quote: That's the difference between you and me... I attack failure and incompetence regardless of politics.

	10-06-2004 04:05									#138
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....

Perhaps once more will suffice: I am not making excuses for Bush's failures. I am merely debating the idea that Bush is not able to do anything except chop wood, while at his ranch in Crawford.

I am critical of Pres. Bush and others in the government; the fact that I have not been blinded by an irrational hatred does not make me a Republican sycophant.

	10-06-2004 04:11									#139
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Then why present it as if a question asked in the middle of a golf outing is tantamount to a foreign policy decision made in the WH?

It's not. It's being presented as example of his callousness and being out-of-touch.

	10-06-2004 04:17									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Perhaps once more will suffice: I am not making excuses for Bush's failures. I am merely debating the idea that Bush is not able to do anything except chop wood, while at his ranch in Crawford.

While that may be so, he doesn't do the same amount of work while on vacation as when in Washington, presumably. Maybe he twiddles his thumbs behind closed doors, but I know he spends a lot of time not doing his job while he's on vacation. He's still the same fratboy he was when he was a kid, the exception being he's no longer drunk, his strange accidents not withstanding.

	10-06-2004 04:18									#141
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's not. It's being presented as example of his callousness and being out-of-touch.

Why would anyone focus on his job 100% of the time. Isn't the point of a game (such as golf) not to concentrate on something like that, but rather on one's own amusement?

	10-06-2004 04:22									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Why would anyone focus on his job 100% of the time.

The POTUS has much greater responsibility that the average guy. No one's saying Bush can't take a vacation, but Bush has taken far more vacations than any other president in modern history. Most Americans don't get much more than two weeks. This guy takes off months. He doesn't show much sign of taking his job very seriously. Could be cuz he knows he's just a front man for Cheney or maybe he just thinks he's entitled, being a blueblood and all. I dunno. I do know he spends too much time out of the office.

Course, maybe that's a blessing.

	10-06-2004 09:48									#143
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It's like no one on the left has heard of working vacations.

Last edited by Imran Siddiqui on 10-06-2004 at 10:03

	10-06-2004 09:54									#144
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I came across this on AskYahoo:

quote: According to an August 2003 article in the Washington Post, President Bush has spent all or part of 166 days during his presidency at his Crawford, Texas, ranch or en route. Add the time spent at or en route to the presidential retreat of Camp David and at the Bush family estate in Kennebunkport, Maine, and Bush has taken 250 days off as of August 2003. That's 27% of his presidency spent on vacation. Although to be fair, much of this time is classified as a "working vacation." Bush isn't the first president to get away from his work. George Bush Sr. took all or part of 543 vacation days at Camp David and in Kennebunkport. Ronald Reagan spent 335 days at or en route to his Santa Barbara, California, ranch during his eight years in office. Of recent presidents, Jimmy Carter took the least days off -- only 79 days, which he usually spent at his home in Georgia. That's less than three weeks a year, which is closer to the average American's paid time off of 13 days per year. What about Clinton? As of December 1999, President Bill Clinton had spent only 152 days on holiday during his two terms, according to CBS News. A former staffer noted Clinton was such a workaholic that "it almost killed Clinton to take one-week vacations during August." In 2000, Clinton cut his summer vacation short to just three days, so he and his wife could concentrate on her Senate race and fundraising for Democrats. While we couldn't find the exact tally for Clinton's last year in office, it's reasonable to expect he didn't increase his vacation rate. And in barely three years in office, George W. Bush has already taken more vacation than Clinton did in seven years.

	11-06-2004 02:46									#145
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quote: And in barely three years in office, George W. Bush has already taken more vacation than Clinton did in seven years.

yup... good to know we have a leader that is taking America's problems seriously

Sorry, I'd rather have a workaholic than a lazy-ass, drunken frat boy.

BTW, F9-11 poster

	11-06-2004 02:54									#146
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It seems obvious that the Bush family believes strongly in vacationing.

I am also appealed that our glorious Jimmy Carter demeaned himself by actually taking only slightly more vacation time than the average scum on the street! He is the President, for christ's sake!

	11-06-2004 03:34									#147
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I'll do a Mr Fun:

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui It's like no one on the left has heard of working vacations.

In this age of technology, does the President always have to be in Washington?!

	11-06-2004 03:45									#148
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Imran... a mr fun

	11-06-2004 03:52									#149
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Right, working- I can just see him working away on his blackberry as he clear the brush.....

Of coruse thought, if he is working so, whats the point?

	11-06-2004 04:00									#150
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Of coruse thought, if he is working so, whats the point?

What do you mean, what's the point? Of going on vacation to clear brush?