08-06-2004 02:57									#61
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Sava, as Roland and other econ people may tell you here, the 90s had a 'bubble' economy on the internet companies. It was bound to burst. So Defiant is somewhat correct in the facade comment, but not totally.

	08-06-2004 03:04									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Sava, as Roland and other econ people may tell you here, the 90s had a 'bubble' economy on the internet companies. It was bound to burst. So Defiant is somewhat correct in the facade comment, but not totally.

Yes, but the "bubble" describes the over-valuing of stocks. That's why it's called a "stock market bubble". Regardless of that, Real GDP growth still stands... and it cannot be denied. But then again, you righties love to deny the facts.

	08-06-2004 03:19									#63
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No, Sava... it's an economic bubble. That impacts the GDP as well. And the bubble did burst in 2001 didn't it? And you do realize that the stocks and GDP have some sort of positive correlation, don't you?

Btw, what was the percentage growth of Real GDP in both administrations? I imagine it'd be much less than the simple numbers.

	08-06-2004 03:25									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No, Sava... it's an economic bubble. That impacts the GDP as well. And the bubble did burst in 2001 didn't it? And you do realize that the stocks and GDP have some sort of positive correlation, don't you?

Yes, but to say that all the economic growth of the 90's was just a bubble is completely false. That's my point. And the GDP numbers didn't drop when this bubble burst. That's very important to take note of.

quote: Btw, what was the percentage growth of Real GDP in both administrations? I imagine it'd be much less than the simple numbers.

I dunno, they don't have those numbers on the site (I don't think)... and I'm not bothering to do the math.

	08-06-2004 04:10									#65
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question: How was it american students did so well back in the 50's with such horrible public school funding?

slightly off topic, but we aren't actually discussing the moview anyways

	08-06-2004 10:04									#66
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Well, the following link disputes that the education was valuable

http://www.edweek.org/ew/vol-18/32excerpts.h18

And other sites (mostly state sites) indicate that funding increased in the 1950s, like http://historytogo.utah.gov/education.html

quote: From the Utah Technical College to the University of Utah Medical School, educational programs that had long struggled for economic survival now soared on an influx of tuition, as well as federal and state dollars newly committed to education.

Though I don't know much about the time period...if you could give a bit of information, it would be appreciated

	08-06-2004 11:56									#67
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Ya, I can't wait for this documentary to come out. I hope we cna dethrone Bush.

	08-06-2004 18:33									#68
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quote: but to say that all the economic growth of the 90's was just a bubble is completely false. That's my point. And the GDP numbers didn't drop when this bubble burst.

Why don't you ask Roland and other economists whether the 90s being just bubble growth is completely false? I think most people will agree that a good portion of 90s growth was based on the internet bubble. And I think the GDP numbers have slowed down greatly since the bubble burst in 2000.

	08-06-2004 20:38									#69
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Speaking of Roland...Gov. Roland of CT is on the cusp of being impeached...Republicans are falling out of governors mansions faster than Democrats can be recalled!

	08-06-2004 22:19									#70
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Wow!

	09-06-2004 00:26									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Defiant... I'm talking about Real GDP figures... not the Dow Jones or Nasdaq. from Economic History Services: http://eh.net/hmit/gdp/gdp_answer.php From 1993 to 2000 (the Clinton years) Real GDP grew from $7.532 trillion to $9.817 trillion. A growth of $2.285 trillion... the largest growth in an 8 year period of GDP in the history of mankind. The Reagan years, as you can see, saw about $1.5 trillion in Real GDP growth. Note that after 1981 (and the massive tax cuts) the GDP SHRUNK! Also note that GDP growth slowed after 2000. The first year of the Bush presidency (when the recession started in MARCH of 2001, so Bush didn't "inherit" a recession), saw slow, but not negative growth. So your "burst bubble" theory is more about the stock market. The GDP, not the stock market, is the number to look at when talking about the economy. I'm available to educate you further if necessary.

You can't used the dollars, you can use adjusted dollars for the time value of money. A better way to look at it is percents, Reagan grew the GDP by 31% and Clinton(based on Reaganomics ) grew it by 33%, big whoop de da. Stock market is a good basis for understanding what is happening in the economy, if the NASDAQ go from 5000 to 2000, somebody is going to lose their jobs and that is what happened. One could argue if there was a planned GDP, some could have said without the privledge of hindsight that the GDP should have been $11,800 trillion(2000), totally bogus but the plan since so many new jobs were being created through .com's until they folded like a deck of cards and reality sets in
and 2000 would be at 9,800. Like I said the expansion was too quick and without merit. Since Bush took office, yes it has been gradual increases but more stable.

	09-06-2004 01:04									#72
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous You obviously went to school at a different time. When I was in school in Wisconsin for 5 years, it was disgusting how underfunded we were. You can't tell me that we weren't, because we were. My parents were so sick of it that my mom ran for (and got elected to) the school board simply so that we could find ways first-hand to help the schools including asking the government for more funding. I am no "gloom and doomer", simply because I've seen first hand what better funding for education actually does

You went here a whole 5 years, I went here 13 years, plus another 5 for college. Again your statement is absolutely false unless you were in the middle of Milwaukee is some horrible neighborhood. I just looked it up and Wisconsin is #10 in the nation on a spending dollar/student, Mass is 5, but no where are we as horrible as you think, not even close.

	09-06-2004 01:13									#73
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But that's not the point I was making: my point was that when education is better funded, you get a better student and thus a better component of society. You said that education will always be there, and you don't need so much taxes going to education. I was simply making the point that it does make a difference.

I went to school in Delavan, in Walworth county.

	09-06-2004 01:19									#74
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 i see. so not fighting a war results in more dead people and money spent. i would have never thought that! please educate me more in right wing ignorance oh great one.

Well, genius level intelligence,
How many more 3,000 civilians do you want to lose in attacks like the WTC, one enough, how about two, three or four, maybe 5, 6, 7. Do you really think if we don't change the ME we will be safe, you are a fool if you think that, and no argument will convince you until they hit you or someone you love. It is a shame that's what it take to convince you.

	09-06-2004 01:23									#75
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Do you think that it will become safer? Last I checked, more Americans were dying post-war in the ME than before the war. Plus, we are no more safe here at home than we were in 2001. I ride on the commuter lines into Boston all the time (the train that rides under the Fleet Center, where the convention is being held.) I have never ever come in contact with any official regarding safety.

We're not going to change the atmosphere of the Middle East. It's just not going to happen: to think that it is is foolishness.

	09-06-2004 01:26									#76
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous But that's not the point I was making: my point was that when education is better funded, you get a better student and thus a better component of society. You said that education will always be there, and you don't need so much taxes going to education. I was simply making the point that it does make a difference. I went to school in Delavan, in Walworth county.

I am making the argument that just throwing cash at a problem is not the solution. I don't pretend to know the answer to a perfect educational program, but we have seen where blindly throwing money at the problem does not get results. As you probably know Wisconsin is becoming the haven for Hmong aliens and now in my district (SPASH), they have their own HS channel, they have their own language and to me this is a complete waste of money. If you are in the USA, espeically MID-Wisconsin, you better learn our language. When my grandfolks arrived here, they sure as hell didn't get the Polish channel or speak Polish in a community taxed program. This money could be spent more wisely or not spent at all. And there is alot of these super individual programs, that if you tried to support them all or anything some liberal can dream up, we will go broke.

	09-06-2004 01:30									#77
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Do you think that it will become safer? Last I checked, more Americans were dying post-war in the ME than before the war. Plus, we are no more safe here at home than we were in 2001. I ride on the commuter lines into Boston all the time (the train that rides under the Fleet Center, where the convention is being held.) I have never ever come in contact with any official regarding safety. We're not going to change the atmosphere of the Middle East. It's just not going to happen: to think that it is is foolishness.

A very tough prospect indeed, but if we don't and democracy doesn't get hold and they get hold of a nuke and plant it in NY or Boston, colonization of the ME will be next just as we did to the Native Americans 100+ years ago. Then you can imagine the loss of life on their side. We have to convince Iran, Iraq, Syria and Saudi Arabia that democracy has to be instituted in their countries for the peace of everyone. It doesn't stop a the ME either, Africa will next be looked at.

	09-06-2004 01:37									#78
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Lets not overdramatize the fact. The US won't "fall to terrorists", nor are terrorist fundamental threats to the very existance of the US.

What is at stake is vast areas in which the US has significant strategic interests, which is why we are involved in the first place and why we have become targets.

As for democratization by force-we will see-the amdin. had some insane expectations going in, and they have been horribly slow in trying to reform from the many mistakes. We will see if they are able to make up for thir incompetence and inneptness.

	09-06-2004 01:57									#79
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iraq was not in any way shape or form responsible. and thats where the money is going. put your head back in the sand.

	09-06-2004 03:02									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant A very tough prospect indeed, but if we don't and democracy doesn't get hold and they get hold of a nuke and plant it in NY or Boston, colonization of the ME will be next just as we did to the Native Americans 100+ years ago. Then you can imagine the loss of life on their side. We have to convince Iran, Iraq, Syria and Saudi Arabia that democracy has to be instituted in their countries for the peace of everyone. It doesn't stop a the ME either, Africa will next be looked at.

Why are you so hung up on democracy in the mideast? If they had democracy they'd just vote to kill us. It wouldn't change how the islamic world feels about america.

BTW... Ebert and Roper gave Fahrenheit 911 two thumbs up
link: http://tvplex.go.com/buenavista/ebe...eper/today.html

	09-06-2004 03:15									#81
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The last part is hilarious. "I call upon all nations to do everything they can to stop these terrorist killers. Now watch this drive!" Bush is great.

	09-06-2004 03:38									#82
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Looks good.

The trailers also double as free Kerry ads.

Ya know, that'd be an interesting way to get out campaign finance laws. I can just see the GOP getting people to fund a movie and massive ads about a John Kerry biography. Where he eats aborted fetuses like candy bars and gives Ho Chi Mihn and Saddam sexual favors.

	09-06-2004 16:05									#83
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For the love of God America, get rid of Bush ASAP.


Bring back Abraham Lincoln!

	09-06-2004 16:08									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf The last part is hilarious. "I call upon all nations to do everything they can to stop these terrorist killers. Now watch this drive!" Bush is great.

Don't you get it? He's an egotistical idiot.

I can even imagine Saddam saying something similar. "I'm going to kill all Americans. Now watch how fast I can eat this pie".

	09-06-2004 16:22									#85
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I know he is. The funny thing is he doesn't even try to hide it.

	09-06-2004 18:31									#86
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What was so wrong about the 'drive' quote? I simply don't get it? So what? He was giving a statement in the middle of playing golf. Whoop-de-doo!

	09-06-2004 18:41									#87
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Anybody with sense could see that, Imran: It's how it is cut, edited, and presented that shows that Bush is teh evil.

	09-06-2004 19:46									#88
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It made me respect Bush more. I'd be pissed if some media jackasses interrupted my round to get some sound-bites on the War on Terror, but he seemed to handle it with a smile and a sense of humor.

	09-06-2004 19:51									#89
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Bush also has a nice looking swing. I like that in a leader.

	09-06-2004 20:02									#90
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Ike had a good swing .