22-07-2004 05:12									#301
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Interesting report this morning that the Kiwis are considering restricting their S12 franchises to All Blacks-eligible players. In other words, no more signing up PIs and flying them in to play S12. Under that sort of rule, a player like Rupeni Caucau wouldn't have been able to play for the Blues.

	22-07-2004 05:32									#302
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The mystery bug strikes again. Rokocoko out for Saturday too. That hurts.

http://www.planetrugby.com/Tourname...ory_37344.shtml

On the bright side Carter is looking fit enough to front up but given the number still out that isn't much of a silver lining ...

	22-07-2004 06:33									#303
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Yep. The Boks would seem to be in with an almighty chance. I wonder to whom we will give the points start?

	22-07-2004 16:56									#304
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Interesting report this morning that the Kiwis are considering restricting their S12 franchises to All Blacks-eligible players. In other words, no more signing up PIs and flying them in to play S12. Under that sort of rule, a player like Rupeni Caucau wouldn't have been able to play for the Blues.

I don't think anything will come of this. In the report I read, Fa'atau said if the door to New Zealand's top professional teams was closed many Pacific islanders would be forced to develop their skills overseas. (Fa'atau was born in Wellington btw).

quote: Fa'atau: They could go and play in Japan or England, but they come to New Zealand, or Australia, because that's where the best rugby is, that's what they come here for. Rugby's getting bigger around the world and if they don't play in New Zealand they will go further afield . . . there's a lot more money in places like France and Italy. For me, personally, it probably won't effect me over the next year or two. But guys deserve a chance when they have come to New Zealand to better their rugby," he said. It would be sad for the guys who come here in future years.

	22-07-2004 17:03									#305
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Yep. The Boks would seem to be in with an almighty chance. I wonder to whom we will give the points start?

How about we don't award any points to any team? We've lost a lot of good players due to misfortune, and the Boks seem to be firing on all cylinders this season. I see Henry reacted to the Bok scrum threat by bringing in Somerville.

	22-07-2004 17:14									#306
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog I don't think anything will come of this. In the report I read, Fa'atau said if the door to New Zealand's top professional teams was closed many Pacific islanders would be forced to develop their skills overseas. (Fa'atau was born in Wellington btw).

You mean Leicester?

And it's a pity Havak disappeared before he could read this from Fa'atau:

quote: They could go and play in Japan or England, but they come to New Zealand, or Australia, because that's where the best rugby is, that's what they come here for.

	22-07-2004 17:15									#307
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog How about we don't award any points to any team? We've lost a lot of good players due to misfortune, and the Boks seem to be firing on all cylinders this season. I see Henry reacted to the Bok scrum threat by bringing in Somerville.

Actually, I was contemplating a start for the ABs.

	22-07-2004 17:51									#308
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How about a 4.5 start for ABs then?

	23-07-2004 04:37									#309
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Our online Sports Bet organisations have the ABs clear favourites, but, with the injuries and illnesses, I can't see it. I notice Rokococo is picked to start. I assume that means he's fit after the illness.

Anyway, I'm happy to back the Boks with 4.5 points start for the ABs. If the Boks turn up like they did in the first hour against the PIs, I think they can roll the ABs. They're massively strong in the forwards and set pieces, and I think the ABs are depleted in those areas. The Boks are also nippy out wide, though obviously not as potent as the ABs. Perhaps it might boil down to the service the Bok backs can get.

Having just checked the Bank A/c, I only have 14.5 Civ Gold. I'll wager 12 on the Boks with 4.5 points start for the ABs.

	23-07-2004 06:01									#310
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Crikey, a start for the AB's while playing at home? What's the world coming to?

10 on the All-Blacks please. I'm still confident of a win, albeit a pretty narrow one.
I can't see Rokocoko starting somehow - some of the others are getting over the mystery bug but he only just came down with it.


That proposal to ban PI players from the S12 is an utterly bloody awful idea. What are they supposed to do instead?
I suppose it could compel all PI players currently in NZ's S12 teams to sign up for the AB's but that'd hardly be the intent of the proposal.
If it were implemented in conjunction with, perhaps, accepting all PI national teams into a regular competition then it may actually have some benefit but as is it puts them out in the cold.
all around.

	23-07-2004 07:44									#311
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon Crikey, a start for the AB's while playing at home? What's the world coming to?

I'm perfectly happy to back the Boks with a start. As I said, our online sports betting has the ABs favourites, and comfortably. I don't think it's going to be that easy.

quote: 10 on the All-Blacks please.

Gotcha.

quote: That proposal to ban PI players from the S12 is an utterly bloody awful idea. What are they supposed to do instead?

That was the point Andydog quoted yesterday. They would have to go to South Africa - I'm not sure about their S12 eligibility rules - or the NH. They couldn't play S12 here, because we already have the rule that says you have to be eligible for the Wallabies to play S12 here. Which is the rule the NZRFU would appear to be planning to emulate. Or talking about it, anyway.

quote: I suppose it could compel all PI players currently in NZ's S12 teams to sign up for the AB's but that'd hardly be the intent of the proposal.

Ain't that easy. They'd have to qualify for the ABs via residency. I think it's three years. So they'd be resident for three years, but ineligible to play S12. They could only play NPC, I assume.

	23-07-2004 16:31									#312
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quote: Originally posted by finbar If the Boks turn up like they did in the first hour against the PIs, I think they can roll the ABs. They're massively strong in the forwards and set pieces, and I think the ABs are depleted in those areas. The Boks are also nippy out wide, though obviously not as potent as the ABs. Perhaps it might boil down to the service the Bok backs can get.

I think we'll beat them. We will probably see a slightly more expansive game (the weather is looking favorable but there will be some frost) from the ABs than what we saw against the Poms and Wallabies. We'll weather the storm for the first half and then make inroads when the fat Bokkes start tiring. All we need to do on defense is tackle hard - the Boks will turn it over eventually.

In the scrums we'll cramp the Bokkes on the hit - beating them to it with timing rather than shunting them (like we did to the Aussies last week). A few wheels perhaps, and maybe some crabbing of the scrum across to disrupt the Bokke ball. Scrums on our ball will be quick and cleared quickly.

quote: Having just checked the Bank A/c, I only have 14.5 Civ Gold. I'll wager 12 on the Boks with 4.5 points start for the ABs.

I could bet something stupid, like 3 civ gold, just to get up everyone's goat, but I won't. 20 on the AB's please!

	23-07-2004 16:35									#313
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another DP! i've been having a lot of this lately

	23-07-2004 16:48									#314
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog I think we'll beat them. We will probably see a slightly more expansive game (the weather is looking favorable but there will be some frost) from the ABs than what we saw against the Poms and Wallabies. We'll weather the storm for the first half and then make inroads when the fat Bokkes start tiring. All we need to do on defense is tackle hard - the Boks will turn it over eventually. In the scrums we'll cramp the Bokkes on the hit - beating them to it with timing rather than shunting them (like we did to the Aussies last week). A few wheels perhaps, and maybe some crabbing of the scrum across to disrupt the Bokke ball. Scrums on our ball will be quick and cleared quickly.

Yes, my worry about the Boks is their last 20 minutes against the PIs. They either ran out of puff or lost concentration. I'm crossing my fingers they'll be pumped for this one. Our commentators here are convinced it will be the ABs easily.

quote: I could bet something stupid, like 3 civ gold, just to get up everyone's goat, but I won't. 20 on the AB's please!

Gotcha.

So that's ravagon for 10, Andydog 20 on the All Blacks with a 4.5 margin. And I'm having 12 on the Boks.

Pool: 42 Civ Gold.

	23-07-2004 21:14									#315
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There's already plenty of money on the ABs so I'll put 20 on the Boks.

I reckon NZ will win, but if they don't I can at least console myself by going for a swim in my civ gold money bin...or at least wash my hands in a sink of civ gold.

It's Andydog that'll be doing the swimming no doubt.

	24-07-2004 07:34									#316
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia There's already plenty of money on the ABs so I'll put 20 on the Boks.

Thanks for diluting my winnings!

Updated betting:

All Blacks with 4.5 points start

All Blacks

Andydog 20
ravagon 10

Springboks

finbar 12
Caligastia 20

Pool: 62 Civ Gold

	24-07-2004 17:12									#317
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All Blacks 23 -d- Springboks 21

Dear, dear, dear. A match the Boks didn't deserve to lose. Yet again, the ABs dominated possession and territory, but couldn't score tries. I actually thought I was watching England playing in black shirts. Massive defence from the Boks and three tries well taken when the opportunities arose. They paid the price with penalties for aggressive defence - coming off the line way too early - and they could easily have been penalised many more times. Yet again, Carlos had next to no impact. G. Henry must now realise that a Test team with strong, aggressive defence can nullify him. And, nullified, he can't do his party tricks. The question is, does Carlos have another string to his bow? And, Tana, you were too clever by half with your post match line about being proud rather than relieved. Your team took seventy eight minutes to score a try with something like 70% of possession. Your team has a problem. Regardless, welcome back to the Boks as a force in rugby.

	24-07-2004 20:35									#318
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Yes, that was the best defence I've seen in a while from any team. As you said though, a lot of offside play as a result.

The ABs have weathered the storm of a great Bok side despite being hit with injury and illness and should be back to full strength when they face the Wallabies in Sydney. I was surprised to see Rokocoko on the field actually...I thought he was one of the latest ABs to fall prey to the sickness that was going around.

Well...I think the Wallabies will have a huge task next week in Perth. Their forwards were not up to scratch against the ABs and I don't expect they will be able to front up against the Springbok pack either. I don't think the Boks will get quite as many scoring opportunities as they did against NZ (Wallabies are better than NZ in defence), but they definitely have an advantage in the forwards.

	25-07-2004 05:53									#319
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With both Rokocoko and Carter playing, the ABs weren't as ravaged as I thought they were going to be. It was interesting that the ABs appeared to win the set pieces, but I thought the Boks' back row, for example, outplayed the ABs' in the loose. Gee, that young Bok #6, Berger, is an immense talent. And what about those two tackles on the AB speedsters by the giant loosehead du Randt?

Anyway, yes, the Boks' pack should enjoy taking on our pack. We both have very strong defences, so it might be a case of gridlock. The Boks' backline and scoring potential isn't yet up to ours (or the ABs'), so I'm going to have to count on that making the difference.

Last edited by finbar on 25-07-2004 at 05:59

	25-07-2004 12:55									#320
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quote: The Boks' backline and scoring potential isn't yet up to ours (or the ABs'), so I'm going to have to count on that making the difference.

So you're saying you'll be murdered in the pack area and hope the girlies will save you?
Tant qu'il y a de la vie, il y a de l'espoir
You'd better have a nice pair of halves to make that happen...

	25-07-2004 16:39									#321
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare So you're saying you'll be murdered in the pack area and hope the girlies will save you?

I could've sworn Havak was away for two weeks! But, yes, that's what I was saying. It worked against England.

quote: Tant qu'il y a de la vie, il y a de l'espoir

If that means, "Where there's life, there's hope" - yes!

quote: You'd better have a nice pair of halves to make that happen...

We do. Unfortunately, they could be backpedalling at a million kilometres an hour.

	26-07-2004 08:04									#322
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Toulouse waits for Tamerlin go on hols before they sign a Welshman!

Stupid link! Stupid page has a stupid tag on it!

	26-07-2004 12:37									#323
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Yee-ikes. That was cutting it just a little too close for comfort. Was so keyed-up that I didn't get to sleep for a couple of hours after the end of the delayed coverage. *yawn*

The result must've been a little disappointing for the Boks in the end - if the ref had given that penalty the Boks conceded (right in front of the sticks) with <3mins to go it would've ended up as a draw. Instead he let play go on with no advantage to the AB's whatsoever until a couple of phases later when they managed to get across the line. A draw would've been a pretty appropriate outcome for that game.

I do have to wonder just how fit some of our players were though. Rokocoko for one was described as 'bed-ridden' on Wednesday and 'moving about' the day after. They may've gotten over the visible symptoms but it must've still been terribly draining just a day and a half before the kickoff.

On the bright side for the 3N - the Boks are back. With a vengeance. I don't think they're pretty much automatically consigned to 3rd place as has been the case over the last few seasons. They looked pretty good out on the field. The return match in SA will be a doozey.
As will be the case this Saturday over here.
Speaking of which, Graham and Eddie are at odds again - Henry praising the Boks game post-match while Eddie condemns their ball-killing tactics. Tut-tut.
He may as well paint a big red target on his players foreheads.
He'll just look like a whinger if the Wallabies don't win in Perth. Some people need to be muzzled.

I'm glad a certain Englishman isn't here to point out that this may apply equally well to a certain Kiwi, whose name may happen to start with a Z.

Last edited by ravagon on 26-07-2004 at 12:46

	26-07-2004 17:06									#324
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Yet again, the ABs dominated possession and territory, but couldn't score tries.

I agree that the rushing defense in midfield was not handled well at all by the All Black backline. Carlos once again struggling when his options were cut down, and the midfield struggled with the brutal tackles of Barry and Joubert. The ball supply to the outsides dried right up, and this kept the Bokke in the game - the few times that the ball did go wide, Howlett mainly, and Rokocko, did look dangerous.

The battle up front though was awesome. The ABs held the ball phase after phase and the green jerseys raced each other to knock em down again. The penalty count did add up though, and that was enough to keep the All Blacks in the game. If these penalties had not been given would the pressure been rewarded with tries? We will never know, but it was surprising that no yellow cards were given - Burger being the main culprit, but hey, play to the Ref, he got away with murder, but good on him.

We didn't play well all in all, and as Umaga said: "It wasn't pretty, but it was a win". And at the end of the day though I thought it was a good win as even though we played pretty badly we still hung tough to win a tight one - like the All Blacks of 96 and 97 used to do. When our plan A 'expansive game' didn't work, we won it with a plan B.

So there we are. This All Black team knows how to win ugly. Last season we knew how to win with all the bells & whistles . So when we get the bells & whistles mixing with the ugly, look out world!

	27-07-2004 04:52									#325
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So, what of Carlos, do you think? He seems to be an indicator of the difference between S12 and Test rugby. In S12, he has the time and space to do his party tricks. In Tests, the pressure of strong, attacking defence shuts him down. I'm sure he'll produce his party tricks against the lesser nations, but are his options too limited to succeed against the top nations?

I'm not altogether sure that the ABs had Plans A and B on the weekend. I thought they had a Plan A - try to find a way past crunching defence. Ultimately, as against the Wallabies, sheer weight of possession meant they had to score sooner or later. The difference was that they almost ran out of time on the weekend. The shocking weather conditions the week before worked against back play. The conditions on Saturday night were close to perfect. I don't think there was a Plan B, and that, coupled with some pretty ordinary defence on the few occasions the Boks had the ball, was what bothered me.

Goodness, gracious me! The Bok media outs their own man for eye-gouging!

	28-07-2004 12:36									#326
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Cripes! We'd dropped like a stone!

	29-07-2004 07:13									#327
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Ben Cohen joins the ranks of the deluded.

And I notice that a Welsh rugby club has appointed Chris Anderson, former Australian Kangaroos (L*****) coach, as their new coach. He has neither played nor coached rugby in his life. We shall see.

	29-07-2004 14:24									#328
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quote: Originally posted by finbar So, what of Carlos, do you think? He seems to be an indicator of the difference between S12 and Test rugby. In S12, he has the time and space to do his party tricks. In Tests, the pressure of strong, attacking defence shuts him down. I'm sure he'll produce his party tricks against the lesser nations, but are his options too limited to succeed against the top nations?

I'm not sure I'm ready decide on Carlos. My gut is telling me that the rush defence used by the Bokkes won't be as effective when we play them next. I say that because the Aussies have had a week to work it out, and the ABs will see what works there, and then have their own thoughts from this week, and come the rematch, I suspect we won't have the same sorts of problems.

Marshall on the bench might be one of the first changes - a halfback with a crisp pass is half the battle against a flat defence.

Also, The Bokke were constantly offside at ruck and maul time, it was as if they didn't care. I suspect they were willing to get hit with penalties so long as they dried up our ball out wide. I think that in the next few tests, the referees will police this more rigorously.

quote: I'm not altogether sure that the ABs had Plans A and B on the weekend. I thought they had a Plan A - try to find a way past crunching defence.

I think their plan A was to play a more expansive game, but this was quickly scuppered due to the rushing defense. Also our backs were standing too flat - something they got a bollocking for at half time. So our plan B was to keep on hitting them hard mainly in the centers until the cracks appeared. And they did, eventually. Lets not forget that the Bokke defence was outstanding, probably the best I've seen. But in the end we won by guts and determination. No flash Harry backline moves that tore the Boer defence to shreds in the world cup quarterfinal, no sweeping counter attacks, just good old fashioned rugby.

	29-07-2004 17:36									#329
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog I'm not sure I'm ready decide on Carlos. My gut is telling me that the rush defence used by the Bokkes won't be as effective when we play them next. I say that because the Aussies have had a week to work it out, and the ABs will see what works there, and then have their own thoughts from this week, and come the rematch, I suspect we won't have the same sorts of problems.

Yes, well, I see a pattern with Carlos that started in the return Tri Nations match between us last year. That was the match we narrowly lost, having been thumped in the first match. In the return match, the Wallabies got into the ABs' faces, and Carlos', in particular. He was much less effective. Ditto the World Cup semi, where he made no contribution at all. Ditto two weeks ago, although the weather and conditions were obviously a factor. Last week, the Boks shut him down in ideal playing conditions, even though your forwards held sway. Any oppo worth its salt now knows how to shut him down. The question is, I believe, does he have anything else in his locker apart from his party tricks? Because I don't know that he's going to get many chances to perform them at the highest level. I noticed the assistant AB coach defending him today. That's usually a worrying sign.

quote: Also, The Bokke were constantly offside at ruck and maul time, it was as if they didn't care. I suspect they were willing to get hit with penalties so long as they dried up our ball out wide. I think that in the next few tests, the referees will police this more rigorously.

They were perpetually offside. But we weren't in the return Tri Nations last season, nor in the World Cup semi. I don't think you need to be constantly offside to cramp Carlos, just ultra aggressive.

quote: No flash Harry backline moves that tore the Boer defence to shreds in the world cup quarterfinal, no sweeping counter attacks, just good old fashioned rugby.

Seventy nine minutes of running into a brick wall before a crack appeared!

	30-07-2004 18:28									#330
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog ...just good old fashioned rugby.

I would not say good, if you are talking about the latest New Zealand vs. South Africa game I would rather say that the game was very poor... as the referee himself.

Finbar's last sentence sums it up adequately, the AB forwards played a dull game: a spontaneaous scrum with 6 to 7 Blacks on the ground held by 2 Boks, ball given to or caught by the half-scrum who handled the ball to a more or less running AB forward bumping into a well organized defence and followed by 5 to 6 "supporting" AB unable to stay on their feet, ball catch by the half-scrum... and so on. Why the AB didn't create a single maul while they were dominating the Boks' forwards is beyond me.

Though it is good to see the AB forwards at work again they still have to relearn how to play.