06-07-2004 19:43									#211
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quote: Walks in here like she used to live here or something!

And there is little you can say to Mrs Finbar (that will achieve anything?).

quote: Yes, let's see what happens when Carlos' head is bouncing up the steps past row 17.

In those circumstances the foul play they are committing will be an order of magnitude worse than anything they did against anyone else. Amusing give they then move on the play the reformed Boks?

Roff is not yet linked with anyone here. I have linked him with tigers. Call it wishful thinking. Maybe he has abandoned the post-grad route?

“You are nicked sunshine”. They really do say it (occasionally). As with all things it looks far better in French.

quote: it occurred to me that the Lions are the precedent - a collection of nations.

With a slight difference – Lions players can only be subsequently capped by the nation on whose Unions behalf they joined the Lions party. Jonno couldn’t play for the ABs after playing for the Lions – and the uncapped Austin Healey in 97 could only ever play for England subsequently.

At least I think that is right. Lets put it this way after next years tour none of them will stay and don the black the same way the PI blindside might.

quote: And if the Lions lose? What will it have achieved?

Very little except make me happier.

quote: Having already said it would be good to see him again, which it would.

Its that infectious bubbly personality of his isn’t it?

	07-07-2004 05:12									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Havak And there is little you can say to Mrs Finbar (that will achieve anything?).

Don't get me started! Mrs finbar bangs on endlessly about how she's her daughter and she loves her!

quote: In those circumstances the foul play they are committing will be an order of magnitude worse than anything they did against anyone else. Amusing give they then move on the play the reformed Boks?

The All Blacks should now be very very afraid. I read in this morning's press that the PIs have called up Brian Lima, veteran Samoan centre/strong man, considered the hardest tackler in rugby.

quote: Roff is not yet linked with anyone here. I have linked him with tigers. Call it wishful thinking. Maybe he has abandoned the post-grad route?

I don't think so. I assume the Uni year up there starts in January or February as it does here?

quote: “You are nicked sunshine”. They really do say it (occasionally). As with all things it looks far better in French.

I went with the literal translation. I'd love to know if there's an idiomatic version. If only Tamerlin would abandon these forays into the real world and stick to this world, he could tell me!

quote: With a slight difference – Lions players can only be subsequently capped by the nation on whose Unions behalf they joined the Lions party. Jonno couldn’t play for the ABs after playing for the Lions – and the uncapped Austin Healey in 97 could only ever play for England subsequently. At least I think that is right. Lets put it this way after next years tour none of them will stay and don the black the same way the PI blindside might.

J**** had represented England before the Lions, so he was tied to England anyway. That aside, it remains an interesting question. I wonder if Healy was committed to England? Some of the PIs on Saturday night had played in the ABs' trial match recently. If they're giving the PI games Test status, you'd've thought ramifications would follow.

quote: Very little except make me happier.

My genuine concern is that he has nothing to gain and everything to lose.

quote: Its that infectious bubbly personality of his isn’t it?

But of course. Not to mention watching a true master craftsman at work. I don't care who they play for, I love watching real quality at work. There's so little of it around. Yet my concern remains.

	07-07-2004 07:17									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I think you mean they reach a stage in their career where they feel the need to test themselves in the best club leagues in the world?

Rephrasing a little ...

They still feel the need to test themselves against others whose dwindling twilight careers are in the same advanced state of decay?
In this particular instance the English club leagues are the best in the world?

quote: It will also be interesting because there has been a line up of kiwis defending them for it in the media. Lets see if that survives them snapping a few AB knees?

What? No insinuations along the lines that islanders wouldn't pull such tricks on other islanders (ie: Pretty much the entirety of the All-Black team)?
You missed a golden opportunity there ...

Actually I rather suspect that many of the Kiwi's 'defending' the islanders play style wouldn't have bothered if Eddie hadn't been quite so vociferous in his condemnations of the same.

quote: It further confuses an already confused area. Still NZ will argue vigourously that PI players are in fact Auckland residents – the territorial city line of which ends just south of Hong Kong?

Ouch. Now I see why you didn't bother with lesser cracks beforehand.
I can't think of a good response so I'll stick with ...
South??!!


Regarding Jonno's possible return, it is something I'd like to see and it'd probably make for a much-improved side regardless of his greatly limited future at that level.

It'd make Clive look like a complete wally though - after all he was one of the most public figures involved in declaring that team members wouldn't be included in the 6N unless they were eligible for the Lions tour - regardless of his official say in the matter - Then Jonno officially retires and England do poorly in the 6N.
Clive publically downplays the Lions chances down-under beforehand - then they perform relatively poorly and his response makes it fairly clear that he'd expected to win afterall.
Now he's trying to bring back his 2003 players for 2005 after struggling in 2004?

The PI's have brought in their 'chiropractor' but it might be Clive who needs to see one after all the backflipping.


Incidentally, (in the spirit of pots'n'kettles) Jonno would probably be most welcome to stay and play for one of the local club sides.
He may have to ramp his game up a notch or two but I don't imagine he'll have too many problems at a slightly higher level?


I may not be around till next week so I propose a 15-point margin to the Islanders this weekend. 10 on the AB's. If the margin is any higher - 10 on the PI's.

	07-07-2004 13:36									#214
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quote: Mrs finbar bangs on endlessly about how she's her daughter and she loves her!

Women eh?

quote: considered the hardest tackler in rugby.

Another good reason to get up early Saturday then.

quote: I don't think so. I assume the Uni year up there starts in January or February as it does here?

Actually no – the Academic year starts in late September/early October. In theory if his post grad is a research appointment he can pretty much start anytime as long as he is paying his own way I think – if it’s taught course he will be here before the tour.

quote: I wonder if Healy was committed to England?

He was uncapped when picked for the Lions in 97 – that’s why I used him as an example.

quote: If they're giving the PI games Test status, you'd've thought ramifications would follow

Sadly little chance of that I suspect. Lets see what happens when the ABs actually select one – it will test if the IRB really is a toothless Tiger…

quote: My genuine concern is that he has nothing to gain and everything to lose.

And it is a very real consideration. With everything that has happened since his decision to retire after the final now seems inspired. His reputation actually grows with every new **** up Dally makes. Wilko is similar (but will be tarnished when he does return to team Dally of course). Certainly returning to England makes no sense for Martin – it’s a no win situation.

But the Lions is different – it is hard to explain but it has a real draw to players here. He may well be tempted to make a 4th tour despite the risks to his ‘legend’. But then the 2001 series did little harm to his reputation in the end – and he has the perfect excuse at coach and in the squad – Clive and the Celts respectively.

The clincher for me is that he is currently playing better than any of the alternatives at lock. I suspect it is between him, the Irish young lad O’Connell and Kay for the test berths if it were picked now. Kay must be secretly delighted at what happened to Shaw and Grewcock as I suspect that has guaranteed his return. I still wish Clive would look at Brown and Deacon though.

quote: In this particular instance the English club leagues are the best in the world?

let me test my maths Ravagon.

World cup final winners playing in the English league sides = 20 (2 total retirements)
World cup final winners playing in the Australian franchises = 2 (at least Gregan and Roff?)
World cup final winners playing in NZ franchises = ZERO.

So I guess the answer to your question is ‘yes’ based on the maths?

quote: Actually I rather suspect that many of the Kiwi's 'defending' the islanders play style wouldn't have bothered if Eddie hadn't been quite so vociferous in his condemnations of the same.

I did miss a trick you are right – but I might have risked overkill if I had used it. as you noted form my later bit of fun.

I love the way NZ and Aus go at each others throats before the tri-nations. The only thing that can stop them doing so is England heading down there so they can unify in an anti-Pom alliance.

Eddie against Graham – it’s going to be interesting to see what gets said.

quote: after all he was one of the most public figures involved in declaring that team members wouldn't be included in the 6N unless they were eligible for the Lions tour

Actually it was unless they made themselves available for the England tour just gone – which makes him look even more ridiculous I think for stopping his best veterans going on a tour that went t*ts up?!

quote: Clive publicly downplays the Lions chances down-under beforehand - then they perform relatively poorly and his response makes it fairly clear that he'd expected to win after all.

Whilst I appreciate your making England synonymous with the Lions I suspect a few Celts might disagree. England just had a nightmare tour – the Lions may well win 3-0 for all we know right now.

quote: He may have to ramp his game up a notch or two but I don't imagine he'll have too many problems at a slightly higher level?

He will probably cope. Give him a try. Just have him back for the start of Tigers season.

15 points? Too conservative for me. This is the Abs we are talking about. You know the team that wins absolutely everything in between each World Cup.

	07-07-2004 18:14									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Women eh?

To quote Norm from "Cheers" in one of the great US sitcom lines ever written: "Women ... can't live with 'em ................. pass the beer nuts".

quote: Actually no – the Academic year starts in late September/early October. In theory if his post grad is a research appointment he can pretty much start anytime as long as he is paying his own way I think – if it’s taught course he will be here before the tour.

I think his specialty is one of those arcane Business disciplines, so I doubt there's any research involved.

quote: He was uncapped when picked for the Lions in 97 – that’s why I used him as an example.

I see. But you overlook the possibility - nay, certainty - that England picked him only because no other country in the world wanted him.

quote: And it is a very real consideration. With everything that has happened since his decision to retire after the final now seems inspired. His reputation actually grows with every new **** up Dally makes. Wilko is similar (but will be tarnished when he does return to team Dally of course). Certainly returning to England makes no sense for Martin – it’s a no win situation.

Precisely. He got out on top. Eales did the same thing, and even younger. And, yes, Wilkinson will suffer if and when he returns. Still, at least you'll have someone in the team who can tackle. I really couldn't imagine our backs - and the Kiwis', for that matter - stepping past him like they stepped past Hodgson, et al.

quote: But the Lions is different – it is hard to explain but it has a real draw to players here. He may well be tempted to make a 4th tour despite the risks to his ‘legend’. But then the 2001 series did little harm to his reputation in the end – and he has the perfect excuse at coach and in the squad – Clive and the Celts respectively.

I can well understand the Lions' attraction. It's a great institution. But there's nothing to say the talent on the next Lions tour will be up to the talent on the last one. From what I've seen of Ireland, Scotland and England over the last 12 months, there are no great standouts. Together, of course, it could be a different matter. J****, of course, would lift them, which is to be expected. There's also, I have to say, nothing to suggest that the new coach will be any better than the last one.

quote: The clincher for me is that he is currently playing better than any of the alternatives at lock. I suspect it is between him, the Irish young lad O’Connell and Kay for the test berths if it were picked now. Kay must be secretly delighted at what happened to Shaw and Grewcock as I suspect that has guaranteed his return. I still wish Clive would look at Brown and Deacon though.

I wish he would too. J**** might be the best of the current lot, but he's also a year older than when he retired from the top grade. Come the Lions tour, he will be two years older. The spirit will be willing, but will the body?

quote: let me test my maths Ravagon. World cup final winners playing in the English league sides = 20 (2 total retirements) World cup final winners playing in the Australian franchises = 2 (at least Gregan and Roff?)

Let me test my maths. English league players playing in the 5th ranked team in the world = 20+.

quote: World cup final winners playing in NZ franchises = ZERO.

And likely to be forever more.

quote: Eddie against Graham – it’s going to be interesting to see what gets said.

It will be interesting. I don't think they have a history, do they?

quote: 15 points? Too conservative for me. This is the Abs we are talking about. You know the team that wins absolutely everything in between each World Cup.

Come on, ravagon, he's 30-love up on you! He'll obviously do a Super Tim and choke at 40-love, but crank up your serve, son!

Oh, and in case no one noticed, the West Indies rolled England in the latest One Day International - chasing 280+, they won by 7 wickets - knocking England out of the competition. The final series is between the Windies and Kiwis, with millions of Poms watching on with an utter lack of interest.

	07-07-2004 20:43									#216
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Yes a great quote that one.

quote: I think his specialty is one of those arcane Business disciplines, so I doubt there's any research involved.

Then October seems likely to be his start date.

quote: I see. But you overlook the possibility - nay, certainty - that England picked him only because no other country in the world wanted him.

The BBC, bless them, just reported today about our five players who signed new deals. Including Austin. Only they signed them almost six weeks ago.

quote: I really couldn't imagine our backs - and the Kiwis', for that matter - stepping past him like they stepped past Hodgson, et al.

It’s actually bizarre how quickly the backline has got that one wrong. Lewsey for example is a renowned full-on tackler like Wilko (just ask Matt Rogers) but he seemed as out of sorts as the rest of them. The more I think on it the more believable behind the scenes discord seems.

quote: Together, of course, it could be a different matter. J****, of course, would lift them, which is to be expected. There's also, I have to say, nothing to suggest that the new coach will be any better than the last one.

I have to hope we can get our forwards sorted fairly quickly – and a return for Moody and Kay, not to mention Jonno, would give me more confidence there certainly. So if we can get our pack firing and then couple it with Wilko feeding the Irish centres, with a combined English/irish backline (well okay just Robinson from us) – it could be a very good team.

Scots and Welsh can carry the water bottles.

And as for Sir Clive – we are going to see in the next 12 months if he really is any good.

quote: Come the Lions tour, he will be two years older. The spirit will be willing, but will the body?

You have hit the crux of the matter. If he himself has doubts on this score he simply won’t get involved. And again the more one thinks on this the more you reralise he must blood the Browns and Deacons ASAP – Grewcock is 32 I think, Shaw 30 and Kay 29 whereas the lads are 22 and 23…

quote: It will be interesting. I don't think they have a history, do they?

brushing aside your mathematics.

They do have a history in fact – and guess what? That’s right – Eddie criticising Graham from the 2001 Lions tour.

quote: The final series is between the Windies and Kiwis, with millions of Poms watching on with an utter lack of interest.

Thanks for pointing that out.

	08-07-2004 04:36									#217
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quote: Originally posted by finbar I went with the literal translation. I'd love to know if there's an idiomatic version. If only Tamerlin would abandon these forays into the real world and stick to this world, he could tell me!

Tell you what!

	08-07-2004 05:02									#218
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Tell you what!

Read the earlier post to which the post you quoted referred!

You're familiar with the Brit TV cop cliche: "Right, you're nicked, sunshine"? How would you translate it into French? Especially "sunshine", which, in this context, is a sort of euphemism for "mate".

	08-07-2004 05:15									#219
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I have to hope we can get our forwards sorted fairly quickly – and a return for Moody and Kay, not to mention Jonno, would give me more confidence there certainly. So if we can get our pack firing and then couple it with Wilko feeding the Irish centres, with a combined English/irish backline (well okay just Robinson from us) – it could be a very good team.

I sense a magic wand being wielded. Kay has yet to prove he can take the big step up. J**** is problematic. Wilkinson will help enormously. O'Driscoll is all class. But a mainly Irish backline?

quote: And as for Sir Clive – we are going to see in the next 12 months if he really is any good.

Sorry, but I think the truth has already been established. I'll just wait the required 12 months to be proved right.

quote: You have hit the crux of the matter. If he himself has doubts on this score he simply won’t get involved. And again the more one thinks on this the more you reralise he must blood the Browns and Deacons ASAP – Grewcock is 32 I think, Shaw 30 and Kay 29 whereas the lads are 22 and 23…

Exactly. The leap has to be taken at some point.

quote: brushing aside your mathematics.

quote: They do have a history in fact – and guess what? That’s right – Eddie criticising Graham from the 2001 Lions tour.

Sheesh. Eddie would have been with the Brumbies. Small beer. Eddie's only words about the new ABs have been kind. A prelude to something else, no doubt.

quote: Thanks for pointing that out.

Gee, England's successful national sport coaches could hold a meeting in a phone box!

	08-07-2004 14:32									#220
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quote: Kay has yet to prove he can take the big step up.

But that is because you have only seen him out of form during the RWC. He was instrumental to the success of our line out in the 03 Slam campaign and contributed greatly to the far more successful June tour last year. He is quality and the rest should have made him hungry again.

quote: But a mainly Irish backline?

Well okay not entirely – I meant Horgan and O’Driscoll at Centre (smith on the bench) as that combo will ask questions of the Blacks. Murphy is a talent right up there with Howlett IMO so he gets the right wing. If they can kick Cohen’s arse so he reaches the form of 2002 he can have the other wing. And Robinson at fullback. Robinson and Murphy can switch at any time.

quote: Sorry, but I think the truth has already been established. I'll just wait the required 12 months to be proved right.

I suspect you are right - but he making the right noises in some ways. He won’t use the divided squad that made Henry loathed by the mid-weekers. He’ll take form players whether internationals or not. Not everything he is saying is daft.

And as far as the criticism of Henry goes – he is just reflecting what the entire squads position is. Even Martin, whilst refusing to overtly criticise Graham in his bio, refused to defend his man management. All he had to say on the matter was players should keep stum during the tour about disliking coaches.

The honeymoon period will not last. One loss to the Wallabies and lets see what happens inside team AB.

quote: Sheesh. Eddie would have been with the Brumbies. Small beer. Eddie's only words about the new ABs have been kind. A prelude to something else, no doubt.

Do you recall the game? Plank and mouth, bad tempers, and a late late winner from Healey. Eddie was upset – and accused Henry of everything from foul play to treason against the antipodean cause afterwards.

So as you say I think the veneer of politeness will fade at some point.

quote: Gee, England's successful national sport coaches could hold a meeting in a phone box!

Define success. Refering back to my thirty love scoring pass the June tests didn’t move the Web Ellis Cup.

	08-07-2004 17:13									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Havak But that is because you have only seen him out of form during the RWC. He was instrumental to the success of our line out in the 03 Slam campaign and contributed greatly to the far more successful June tour last year. He is quality and the rest should have made him hungry again.

Yes, but he was understudy to J****. Now there's no J****. He has those boots - not to mention jawline - to fill. That's what I meant. I think.

quote: Well okay not entirely – I meant Horgan and O’Driscoll at Centre (smith on the bench) as that combo will ask questions of the Blacks.

Who's the other good Irish centre? I think he came back from injury against the Boks but was injured again.

quote: Murphy is a talent right up there with Howlett IMO

Not that I doubt your word, but that's a big claim. I shall wait to see.

quote: If they can kick Cohen’s arse

Strip about 10 lbs off him for starters. Maybe more.

quote: And Robinson at fullback.

Mmmm. From my observation, better on the wing, but I haven't seen him enough.

quote: And as far as the criticism of Henry goes – he is just reflecting what the entire squads position is. Even Martin, whilst refusing to overtly criticise Graham in his bio, refused to defend his man management. All he had to say on the matter was players should keep stum during the tour about disliking coaches.

Quite right too. He understands propriety. I just think Clive's dredging up of the last tour is cheap.

quote: Do you recall the game? Plank and mouth, bad tempers, and a late late winner from Healey. Eddie was upset – and accused Henry of everything from foul play to treason against the antipodean cause afterwards.

Oh yes. Now I remember. Still, both having thumped England, they have something in common.

quote: Define success. Refering back to my thirty love scoring pass the June tests didn’t move the Web Ellis Cup.

Heavens above - your recall of the WRC is starting to match English tennis' recall of Fred Perry.

	08-07-2004 19:50									#222
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quote: That's what I meant. I think.

Ah right. Well yes that’s fair enough. Big shoes to fill – he might be able to.

quote: Who's the other good Irish centre? I think he came back from injury against the Boks but was injured again.

The most talented is probably Rob Henderson who did not tour due to injury (don’t think he has retired). The lad who played the Boks in the 2nd test is Kevin Maggs – he came in at 12 and Horgan returned to the wing due to Murphy’s chest infection keeping him out. Maggs is okay, nothing more. Ex Bath player just signed for Ulster.

quote: Not that I doubt your word, but that's a big claim.

I was understating it! He is possibly better as he still performs mircles with lesser people around him.

Geordan is an unlucky lad – he broke his leg in Irelands RWC warm ups, got a chest infection for the 2nd Bok test too. Was ignored in his early 20s when Ireland had a policy of not picking you if you played in England (as they tried to attract their lads to the Provincial sides).

He is good – no over-selling it. You may well see how good when he and Doug square off next year.

quote: Strip about 10 lbs off him for starters. Maybe more.

Good call – I think he has drifted to nearer 17 than 16 – too much anyway.

quote: Mmmm. From my observation, better on the wing, but I haven't seen him enough.

Clive prefers him at 15. I probably agree with you. Matt Perry at 15 causes me no problems – and Robinson booting Cohen to the bench hardly raises my eyebrow.

Or maybe Healey on the wing?

quote: Quite right too. He understands propriety. I just think Clive's dredging up of the last tour is cheap.

As you well know he responded to direct questions from Journos at a press conference. Perhaps ill considered – but nothing I wouldn’t say – Henry was the wrong man in the wrong job at the wrong time. Fingers crossed 2005 brings déjà vu on that one.

quote: Oh yes. Now I remember. Still, both having thumped England, they have something in common.

They do – both have lost to Clive many times more often than they have beaten him. And for both one swallow has made a summer apparently?

quote: Heavens above - your recall of the WRC is starting to match English tennis' recall of Fred Perry.

Would you rather I set myself up for a huge fall by saying we will whup the Wallabies in November?

	08-07-2004 22:55									#223
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Read the earlier post to which the post you quoted referred!

quote: You're familiar with the Brit TV cop cliche: "Right, you're nicked, sunshine"? How would you translate it into French? Especially "sunshine", which, in this context, is a sort of euphemism for "mate".

As an euphemism for "mate" and though the literal translation is indeed "lumière du soleil" I would say that the French equivalent is something like "mon pote".

Ouais, t'es niqué, mon pote!

This is of course very rude and I would never use such kind of words weren't it for the education of a poor lonesome Australian.

	09-07-2004 05:27									#224
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quote: Originally posted by Havak The most talented is probably Rob Henderson who did not tour due to injury (don’t think he has retired). The lad who played the Boks in the 2nd test is Kevin Maggs – he came in at 12 and Horgan returned to the wing due to Murphy’s chest infection keeping him out. Maggs is okay, nothing more. Ex Bath player just signed for Ulster.

Ah yes. Mr Henderson. He of the not-so-subtle tackling technique. During the Lions tour if I recall? I thought there was also another Irish centre against the Boks. Darcy? Or similar?

quote: He is good – no over-selling it. You may well see how good when he and Doug square off next year.

I've written down your predictions - Murphy to whup Howlett; England to whup Wallabies in November (as per the end of your post) - and we shall revisit them at appropriate times in the future.

quote: Good call – I think he has drifted to nearer 17 than 16 – too much anyway.

Yes, it's not as if he's a monster of Lomo-esque proportions, 6' 5" or whatever. He looks like an overweight 6' 1".

quote: Or maybe Healey on the wing?

As in flight? Flying away? Damn fine idea.

quote: They do – both have lost to Clive many times more often than they have beaten him. And for both one swallow has made a summer apparently?

As we all know, it's cyclical. England had their two or three years. Current indications are that it could be another two or three years before their turn comes again.

quote: Would you rather I set myself up for a huge fall by saying we will whup the Wallabies in November?

I've written down your prediction. (see above)

	09-07-2004 05:32									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin As an euphemism for "mate" and though the literal translation is indeed "lumière du soleil" I would say that the French equivalent is something like "mon pote". Ouais, t'es niqué, mon pote! This is of course very rude and I would never use such kind of words weren't it for the education of a poor lonesome Australian.

Mmmm. Niqué sounds suspiciously like our "get nicked", a euphemism for "get f***ed".

	09-07-2004 13:51									#226
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quote: He of the not-so-subtle tackling technique. During the Lions tour if I recall?

Yes he made a bad tackle on that tour all right. And the Aussie media wanted him deported for it if I recall? Whereas McCrae was a national hero for launching a pre-meditated assault on O’Gara – and Nathan Grey entered folklore for turning a series when he tried to kill Richard Hill in Melbourne by separating his head from his body.

We will never agree on that tour Finbar. For me it was obvious from Perth that the Aussies sides had been briefed to cripple players in advance of the tests (and indeed through ‘robust’ play they sent a record eight players home before Brisbane) – and a spiral of violence started from that point. The Aussies blame the lions – but everyone there (not wearing free all yellow clothing) knew the truth.

quote: Darcy? Or similar?

Ah yes D’Arcy. How could I forget the Irish rugby writers player of the year? Got injured in the first test which is why Maggs got fixed in my mind. He is a Leinster boy and yes he is a pretty good player. Quite similar to BOD though so Horgan is still a better contrast in a combination. He could easily be a Lion though.

quote: and we shall revisit them at appropriate times in the future.

Well you have written them down in a unique editorial way (in that it doesn’t match what I actually said) but okay lets let it ride. Howlett is a great player but he may not return from injury in top form. By September Geordan will have the pin out of his leg and be back to full fitness for the new season.

Plus I have seen Ben Cohen out sprint Doug to the try line so my bet that Geordan can is not as wild as SH posters here might think (in fact given this it’s almost a certainty). Then again none of them have seen him and I’ve seen them both play quite a bit. I’m pretty confident on this one! Blimey Ollie Smith can out sprint Doug as well. Doug’s greatness is not based purely on straight line speed – it’s based on getting that 2 metre head start behind the defence.

Now that one has to make Ravagon bite surely?

quote: He looks like an overweight 6' 1".

He plays his club rugby at Saints – with lardy. The club nutrionist must own a takeaway!?

quote: As in flight? Flying away? Damn fine idea.

At the moment one would say you are safe – Clive has ignored him with England so logic dictates Lions chances are slim. However Clive just ***** up big time with his England selections so it is possible he will revisit other options. VD may return to plague you yet…

quote: Current indications are that it could be another two or three years before their turn comes again

It’s the sudden significant nose dive that concerns. It shouldn’t happen. Drop away yes – but stay in touch. We have good young players. They won’t beat teams like the ABs and Aussies yet but I suspect the young lads in Canada would have come closer than Dallys mob did.

Still as you say it is cyclical and great things are being said of some youngsters – I thrust Deacon and Brown in your face continuously I know but it is worth considering that Dean Richards and John Wells are both on record as saying Deacon is better than Jonno age for age. Neil Back has a 20 year old protégé called Will Skinner breaking through (another who missed touring due to minor inury) and I think he is nearly there. And there are a stack of U21 and U19 England front rowers on Tigers books alone. The future has definite prospects – hopefully for 2007 we will have a good young side just as the ABs and Wallabies are fielding ‘veteran’ units on the cusp of retirement.

Seems to be an 8:30am start for coverage of the PI game with the ABs – must try to rise in time.

	09-07-2004 16:51									#227
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Yes he made a bad tackle on that tour all right. And the Aussie media wanted him deported for it if I recall? Whereas McCrae was a national hero for launching a pre-meditated assault on O’Gara – and Nathan Grey entered folklore for turning a series when he tried to kill Richard Hill in Melbourne by separating his head from his body. We will never agree on that tour Finbar. For me it was obvious from Perth that the Aussies sides had been briefed to cripple players in advance of the tests (and indeed through ‘robust’ play they sent a record eight players home before Brisbane) – and a spiral of violence started from that point. The Aussies blame the lions – but everyone there (not wearing free all yellow clothing) knew the truth.

Gee, a bit of really really stinky old bait hauled in a whopper!

quote: Ah yes D’Arcy. How could I forget the Irish rugby writers player of the year? Got injured in the first test which is why Maggs got fixed in my mind. He is a Leinster boy and yes he is a pretty good player. Quite similar to BOD though so Horgan is still a better contrast in a combination. He could easily be a Lion though.

Darcy. That's him. I haven't seen Horgan play in the centres - he didn't end up there against the Boks as he was going to - but, as I've said before, he's always looked more of a centre than a winger. Bit like Rathbone. Horgan and O'Driscoll would be a tough old combo to combat.

quote: Well you have written them down in a unique editorial way (in that it doesn’t match what I actually said)

I'm a creative! Actually, I hoped you hadn't noticed the creativity.

quote: Plus I have seen Ben Cohen out sprint Doug to the try line

Someone obviously dropped a pork pie crust somewhere close to the chalk.

quote: Now that one has to make Ravagon bite surely?

Well, he operates on Perth time. We could have a new thread before he gets to that stinky bit of bait.

quote: It’s the sudden significant nose dive that concerns. It shouldn’t happen. Drop away yes – but stay in touch. We have good young players. They won’t beat teams like the ABs and Aussies yet but I suspect the young lads in Canada would have come closer than Dallys mob did.

Yes, but bear in mind a couple of things. As I opined recently, you were beyond your best at the World Cup. The slide had already begun, IMHO. On top of that, take from the side the spirit and the glue that was J****, the experience and guile that was Back, the steel and commitment of Wilkinson (and his kicking, although losing that has been less of a factor than his other contributions to the team and on the field), along with the other experienced hands who disappeared, and I'd reckon you're left with - hazarding a guess - 33% of the team you had. Some Clive stupidity in the selection department might reduce it to 29%. Allow for improvement on the All Black and Wallaby front, and you have a rather seismic shift, I think.

quote: Still as you say it is cyclical and great things are being said of some youngsters – I thrust Deacon and Brown in your face continuously I know but it is worth considering that Dean Richards and John Wells are both on record as saying Deacon is better than Jonno age for age. Neil Back has a 20 year old protégé called Will Skinner breaking through (another who missed touring due to minor inury) and I think he is nearly there. And there are a stack of U21 and U19 England front rowers on Tigers books alone.

Then someone should get those young players either onto the field or at least the bench. Get the buggers some experience. Eddie, to his credit, picked Matt Giteau for the last NH tour before he'd even played S12. Now, at barely 22, he could step into Larkham's shoes and do a pretty fine job.

quote: Seems to be an 8:30am start for coverage of the PI game with the ABs – must try to rise in time.

Change the locks on Friday night!

	09-07-2004 17:18									#228
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quote: Gee, a bit of really really stinky old bait hauled in a whopper!

Damn – didn’t even see the hook!

quote: Horgan and O'Driscoll would be a tough old combo to combat.

There has to be a strong chance it will be the Lions pairing. D’Arcy, Tindall and Smith will all likely be there or thereabouts too.

quote: Actually, I hoped you hadn't noticed the creativity.

Oh I’m quite capable of missing the blindingly obvious – just not consistently.

quote: Someone obviously dropped a pork pie crust somewhere close to the chalk.

Very close to being drafted as my signature that!

quote: Well, he operates on Perth time. We could have a new thread before he gets to that stinky bit of bait.

Perth time is like Dublin or Rome time then? Everything is due course so why worry?

quote: Allow for improvement on the All Black and Wallaby front, and you have a rather seismic shift, I think.

Solid points although his selection accounts for more than 4% I think. Wrong skipper, wrong loose head props, wrong hooker(s), one wrong lock, wrong flankers, wrong centres and wrong wingers twice. Come on – that’s more than 4%?

November should see a significantly closer game as some of these are corrected and the injured lads return.

On which note I am pleased to report things now look better for Lewis Moody. He is training lightly and expects to make it for the start of our new season. I’d be delighted to see him ready for November that’s for sure.

quote: Get the buggers some experience

Amen to that. I think the pressure to do so will become irresistible for Sir C to be honest. He is no longer the untouchable he became after the RWC – and the RFU cannot tolerate a poorly performing England side for long as it will skupper revenue.

One of Eddie’s strengths has always been throwing youngsters in. His pre-decessor shared it (e.g. with Smithy).

quote: Change the locks on Friday night!

I am sorely tempted to.

	09-07-2004 17:39									#229
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Perth time is like Dublin or Rome time then? Everything is due course so why worry?

Not even that romantic. In Perth, they're still crossing their fingers for Lindbergh to cross the Atlantic safely.

quote: Solid points although his selection accounts for more than 4% I think. Wrong skipper, wrong loose head props, wrong hooker(s), one wrong lock, wrong flankers, wrong centres and wrong wingers twice. Come on – that’s more than 4%?

In that case, England are in the red - minus 15% of what they were.

Forgive the extra mirth. I've just come back from that BBC rugby forum where someone asked everyone to mark the Nose out of 10 for his captaincy and playing efforts on the tour. Several gave him 9/10 for both.

quote: One of Eddie’s strengths has always been throwing youngsters in. His pre-decessor shared it (e.g. with Smithy).

And Bob before him. Interesting cultural difference. We toss youth into most representative sports, England is reluctant.

	09-07-2004 20:36									#230
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conservative with a small c Finbar. It holds us back in most sports as you say.

I thought I had mentioned those forums are plagued with Bath/Wasps and Glaws fans (aka the mentally subnormal).

For anyone rational even if they marked his play highly (and I will concede he did try hard - if not too effectively so) his captaincy was non existent. Clenching your fist and balling at people does not a captain make. it does a Muppet make however.

And for Ravagon's benefit Lindbergh made it safely. before alledgedly turning into a Nazi.

	09-07-2004 21:09									#231
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Mmmm. Niqué sounds suspiciously like our "get nicked", a euphemism for "get f***ed".

You are right, the resemblance is indeed more than suspiscious.

	10-07-2004 07:08									#232
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I thought I had mentioned those forums are plagued with Bath/Wasps and Glaws fans (aka the mentally subnormal).

Phew! Lucky I've never been a Gloucester supporter!

quote: And for Ravagon's benefit Lindbergh made it safely. before alledgedly turning into a Nazi.

Kind of you to put ravagon out of his misery. Now he only has to brood over the possibility that the Hun will discover the plans for a D-Day invasion.

	10-07-2004 07:11									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin You are right, the resemblance is indeed more than suspiscious.

Heard an oldie but goodie joke this morning:

Q. How many surrealist painters does it take to change a light globe?

A: A fish.

	10-07-2004 14:40									#234
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Heard an oldie but goodie joke this morning: Q. How many surrealist painters does it take to change a light globe? A: A fish.

	11-07-2004 17:16									#235
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I think Rabeni will prove a good signing for us.

One question springs to mind - why does the kiwi commentator (not Jonesy the summariser - the guy who does the main commentary) keep adding letters into names that do not exist?

He refered to Rabeni throughout as RaMbeni and always calls Umaga UmaNga. I can't even work out what he calls Rokocoko.

Is it just that he can't spell?

I have to say I thought the Islanders were very unlucky - they played very well. Very fortunate for the ABs they had their own Fijian on the wing.

	11-07-2004 17:41									#236
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I think Rabeni will prove a good signing for us.

He didn't disgrace himself.

quote: One question springs to mind - why does the kiwi commentator (not Jonesy the summariser - the guy who does the main commentary) keep adding letters into names that do not exist? He refered to Rabeni throughout as RaMbeni and always calls Umaga UmaNga. I can't even work out what he calls Rokocoko.

That's how they're pronounced. It's like the airport city of Nadi in Fiji is pronounced Nandi (Nan-dee). A bit like, in England, Worcestershire is pronounced nothing like it looks, and the name Cholmondley is pronounced Chumley. Rokococo (note the two "c"s) is pronounced Roko-thoe-thoe. The "c" is pronounced as "th". The other winger, now departed for the NH, Caucaunibuca, is pronounced "Thou-thou-nibuca". Just think - you can be the first in the NH to know how to pronounce his name.

quote: Is it just that he can't spell?

No, it's just that you're ignorant of the colonial ways!

quote: I have to say I thought the Islanders were very unlucky - they played very well. Very fortunate for the ABs they had their own Fijian on the wing.

They played very well. Exposed some dodgy All Black defence. Interesting that the PIs forgot the headhunting - well, for the most part, after the first ten minutes - and decided to play some rugby. Unlike against us.

	11-07-2004 19:12									#237
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Well the Islanders really stepped up against the All Blacks this weekend. No doubt the conditions were more to their liking than in their game against the Wallabies. Minus the rain-soaked mudbath they were very dangerous on attack.

I take this match as a positive overall for NZ because despite the conditions favoring the Islanders we were able to win by the same margin as the Wallabies. It should actually have been more though because the last Islanders try came from play that should not have continued. Where was the touch judge? Picking daisies? The player that batted the ball out of the ruck was obviously not on his feet.

	12-07-2004 13:23									#238
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quote: He didn't disgrace himself.

He made himself busy and looks like he has some skills. We can’t ask for more really.

quote: Just think - you can be the first in the NH to know how to pronounce his name.

I appreciate the advice on the phonetics, I really do. But ultimately if you chaps are using our language you should abide by our conventions. It really is bad form to mess with the mother tongue.

You missed an obvious target of course – how does Leicestershire become Lester-shear.

quote: No, it's just that you're ignorant of the colonial ways!

Our language – our rules.

quote: Interesting that the PIs forgot the headhunting - well, for the most part, after the first ten minutes - and decided to play some rugby. Unlike against us.

The conditions must have influenced that. Good running ground.

So what happens next week? The Boks take on the PI’s - but do the Wallabies and ABs square off too?

quote: Where was the touch judge? Picking daisies?

Dickinson seldom refers to touch officials does he? He missed a lot – incuding plenty of ‘art’ from the AB number 7 – Hollah was it?

The thing that worried me most for NZ is the TV kept cutting to piccies of Henry and Hansen in the gallery. The combination that took Wales right down the tube – how long will the honeymoon last I wonder?

	12-07-2004 17:01									#239
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quote: Originally posted by Havak He made himself busy and looks like he has some skills. We can’t ask for more really.

In your current situation, he sounds ideal.

quote: You missed an obvious target of course – how does Leicestershire become Lester-shear.

Nah, sorry, it was never a target. It's actually relatively logical. Unlike Cholmondley as Chumley and even Ralph as Raif.

quote: Our language – our rules.

Yeah, Cholmondley as Chumley is a very sensible and obvious rule.

quote: The conditions must have influenced that. Good running ground.

Perhaps. And, admittedly, they combined better than they did against us. I liked Tana Umaga's line - the Wallabies ran at the big defenders too much. Um, Tana, that wasn't the problem. It was their work off the ball that was the problem. Ask George Gregan how his neck feels after being spear-tackled off the ball.

quote: So what happens next week? The Boks take on the PI’s - but do the Wallabies and ABs square off too?

Yes, the first Bledisloe match is in Wellington next weekend.

quote: The thing that worried me most for NZ is the TV kept cutting to piccies of Henry and Hansen in the gallery.

No other country's TV coverage does it to the extent that the Kiwis do it. They're always showing the coaches of both teams.

	12-07-2004 19:02									#240
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quote: In your current situation, he sounds ideal.

Best team in the country – all World cup winners rested all summer and raring to go? Yes he will fit right in!

quote: Unlike Cholmondley as Chumley and even Ralph as Raif.

Where’s the problem there? Both are totally logical.

quote: Ask George Gregan how his neck feels after being spear-tackled off the ball.

It is interesting how both the PI’s and the Boks have treated the games against the ABs very differently in recent years. It seems almost required to try and murder a few Wallabies. England of course proved the rule by being the exception – we played a reasonably niggle free match with the Aussies. The less said about the AB games the better (but I am sure it was all the fault of the England players anyway).

quote: Yes, the first Bledisloe match is in Wellington next weekend.

This used to be a no brainer for me. I would back the Abs without thinking twice. But strangely this year I have a little devil on my shoulder that would like to see Henry crash and burn (there is a nasty vindictive side to my nature that two huge losses brings to the fore). Can I support the Wallabies? A painful decision awaits.

The other game is just as hard – the Boks played some great rugby against Ireland and it was free of the recent problems with discipline. But I guess I have to go with the side RaMbeni is with. Go Tigers!

quote: They're always showing the coaches of both teams.

But why? Henry and Hansen are both very dour men. They show almost no emotion. It’s like watching paint dry?

Apparently Tigers have lost Neil Baxter, the young wing poached from league who showed promise before injury wrecked his season. He was offered a new deal but allegedly turned it down because he was not guaranteed the game time he desired. If true it may reflect the differences with league – Union squads seldom have ‘guaranteed starts’ in their deals. Shame though – still it means Healey has probably secured more time on the wing. He will make the Lions yet. Lets hope he finds time to visit Australia too and pick up his diplomatic work where he left off?