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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:36
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There you go, 30 seconds of peace. 
quote:
Originally posted by Havak
Classy satire Finbar. I wish you had mentioned the A side – the one ray of light in a dark dark weekend. |
I was going to mention it till I realised what the A side had beaten - a mob of fur seals.
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You catch a whole nation in mourning here today – sadly only because of the overpaid ballet dancers in our soccer side losing to Tamerlins mob who scored two goals in injury time to steal the game. FInbar watched it - I would not out of principle (the principle that I hate soccer).  |
I'm glad I woke at 5am and couldn't go back to sleep. From the little I know of soccer, England seemed to shut up shop with their 1-0 lead, content to defend it. I gather from reading some bits and pieces that it's a tactic employed in the English Premier League. Only it doesn't work against a team as talented as les grenouilles. All I can honestly say is that I absolutely thoroughly enjoyed watching those gloating England supporters' faces turn ashen. At once stage, while 1-0 up, they were singing "God Save The Queen"!  Twayts!
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On more important matters I have to admit some of the passages of play from the Kiwis on Saturday was as good as I have ever seen in the game – respect where it is due. It didn’t help them of course – Thorpe and Giles sealing a 3-0 series whitewash yesterday afternoon.
What you thought I was going to talk about Rugby? |
We'll give you that one. Only on account of your grief.
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What should worry Clive most is the way the AB forwards out muscled the “strongest pack he has ever fielded”. |
I assume his first appraisal of England's problem as "we fell off some tackles in the first 30 minutes" was wry understatement.
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SOS Jonno indeed. He could not have changed the result but the abject surrender in the first half would not have occurred under him. He needs to be involved somewhere in the setup to get some passion back in our game. |
Somewhere. Somehow. They were absolutely totally leaderless.
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It is no comfort to me that I spotted some of the weak links. Did I say Simpson-Daniel was suspect in defence? I meant to say AWOL obviously! Hill at openside has finally been exposed for the stupid idea it is – and Jones proved he is not up to this level. Hodgson was a totally let down – he is better than that so I can only assume he got stage fright. And it all happens again next weekend. What can Clive do given he took a strange squad anyway? Well Barkley at Fly – he is young and green but he is not the rabbit Charlie made of himself. Corry at blindside I think so at least there is one man in the back row. And at openside it has to be the only natural number 7 in the squad – just a shame that he is actually Australian. Yes indeed, I think he should play Lipman.
How do you turn around a team after a defeat like that? Clive thinks he knows how – you point out how bad Kaplan is. Is anyone surprised he picked on the ref? |
Someone should point out to Clive that his defence was offside (probably) 75% of the match. If Kaplan had policed offside, the ABs might have scored half a dozen more tries.
I don't think you can turn a team around after a defeat like that. It's up to them. They know they played like shite. They're all professional rugby players. They have to rediscover their pride. In terms of changes, do you toss in a novice like Barkley against McCaw and Co? Or Lipman? Call it re-building? [I haven't seen much of Hodgson so I don't what he's capable of, but he seemed to be flinching whenever he got the ball (usually poorly from Dawson) as if expecting to be smashed] And what of Dawson? He was slow motion.
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BOD continues to impress however – I think he may be Lions skipper next year |
He did some terrific stuff in the first half that I saw.
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And Wallabies-Scotland was routine stuff – rusty Australians still proving a class above industrious Scots. |
Notice the ref's phobia about the gap in the lineout? That mysteriously vanished later in the match? 
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In one of the great ironies of life the A side now face the Maori in the Churchill cup final next weekend. How much would the Kiwis love it if both their sides beat Poms on the same weekend? |
I checked out the Maori line up. I recognised only a couple of names. Mainly NPC chaps.
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If I can briefly return to the cricket – I think England are starting to look an okay side Finbar. That lad Harmison is the best bowler we have had in a generation and the batting lineup finally has a middle order that can stick around a bit. They will not beat the Aussies over a series – but they may take a test or two. |
Yes, Harmison went from the depths to some good heights out here. He's big and quick. But against top class batting he has to be accurate, too. Our top 7 slaughter anything not right on the spot. Has that big quick Jones come back yet? He seriously injured a knee or leg out here. He looked to have potential too. As to your batting - Thorpe and Vaughn are still your only top class players, I think, and that's when Thorpe's head is right and Vaughn isn't bothered by the captaincy. Trescothic, unless he acquires footwork from somewhere, will always struggle against quality bowling, and Butcher will fail more often than he makes big scores. But, as I've said, our bowling isn't as potent as it was, so it might boil down to a battle of batting lineups.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
Soccer supporters – what can I say. There was trouble around the country last night after the game. Chemical neutering may be the only answer. |
Save some of those chemicals for Tamerlin! And I don't mean the mind altering ones!
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I suspect so – he has been unusually honest, to whit “It was a thumping. I can't think of any positives to come out of the game.” |
Well, I suppose something of this sort had to be on the cards. The real strength of the World Cup winning team - one person aside - was its veterans. Remove that strength in one hit and you're immensely vulnerable. And when one of the strengths literally carried - as we all know he did - the team on his shoulders ...
The thing is, no one has yet publicly admitted that. They probably won't either.
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In all honesty Finbar what can it hurt? NZ have their tails up now and in all likelihood another thrashing is on the way – blood the youngsters and hope this tour does what the 98 one did in the long run. Certainly the Hill experiment at 7 has to end – how many tests do we need to lose for Clive to get that one into his thick skull? |
It's probably too much (for England) to hope the ABs had a day out. Well, they did, but they're capable of doing it again. Providing it doesn't go to their heads. I'm sure G. Henry will be working against that. Yes, I suppose the bullet might as well be bitten. You have to start rebuilding sometime, somewhere. Whether the player options available on this tour are genuine longer term possibilities might be another matter? Which gets back to tour selections. Anyway, you can rest assured we won't give you anything like the hard time the ABs are giving you. By which I mean, the Wallabies will obviously be trying like stink, there's revenge to be had, but we obviously don't have the pack to upset the apple cart as the ABs did. We'll test you elsewhere, and maybe your pack will be able to set up something. History shows we always take at least three or four matches to run into form.
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I only caught the later part of the second half as the Scots wilted… |
Oh well, by that stage Honiss had forgotten his earlier lineout tunnel pedantry. You saw us at our, um, best for the day. Very scratchy stuff. Did you see that poor Scotland winger try to chip over Wendell? When he only really had Wendell between him and the try line? Thanks very much, said Wendell, catching the ball and strolling away for a try.
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Apparently the Canadian backline was young and fast and caused our defence some grief – seems to be a national problem then? |
Mmmm. The Maori might be largely NPCers, but there's a vague chance they're probably young and even quicker and more skilful than the fur seals!
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Played in the first test without really finding form then injured his foot and missed the last two. Still has plenty of potential – but worryingly injury prone. Strauss came back down to earth in this test with two poor innings. |
Pity he's injury prone. He put the wind up some of our batsmen out here before he hurt himself. And Strauss? Well, I recall Goochie's first couple of test innings.
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There is one player who seems to have his start firmly rising –Geraint Jones (it is the English and Welsh cricket board after all). Apparently born in Bok land, raised in Queensland and matured in England. You can tell he spent time in Australia – oozes confidence. |
Can he tackle? When does the next Air NZ flight leave?
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Tamerlin I would very much like to stop talking about S*****. Finbar needs to stop watching it! |
There was nothing else on at 5am! As Tamerlin would well know!
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by ravagon
I'm surprised to such a thing from the great one - a minor case of the blues at not actually playing perhaps?
Do players often take a break from actually attending matches upon retiring? |
More often than not, from what I understand. Some say they find it easier to deal with the withdrawl by not turning up, particularly not going into the rooms before and/or after the match. Some, who might go to matches, deliberately avoid going into the rooms on the basis that the last thing the players need is the distraction of a retiree looking over their shoulders.
Regardless, as Havak noted, J**** has to become involved somewhere backstage. It's difficult, politically, at the moment. He's freshly retired, the team has nose-dived, any involvement this soon might be taken as a slur on Clive. And I suspect that's a major reason why J**** isn't attending. It was always patently obvious that J**** was instrumental in the team's success, probably more so than Clive. Methinks J**** is diplomatically treading lightly.
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One rather interesting point that came up on the news last night, which will undoubtably thrill finbar, is that soccer is now, apparently, Australia's largest sport - topping even the AFL.
I'm not entirely sure from whence this new-found enthusiasm cometh - what with the "Australian favourite" team in the EPL having been relegated at the end of last season. |
S***** has always had a big following here and a huge grassroots set up. It has always been hamstrung - sabotaged even - on the organisational side, from within, by various individual, would-be powermongers determined to protect the administrative fifedoms they've spent years developing. Look at the sh*tfight that went on prior to Frank Lowy being installed as the new supremo. And those would-be powermongers haven't gone away. They're waiting in the wings for the new set up to err. They'll be back. And s***** will remain the administrative basketcase it always has been.
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:36
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quote:
Thanks very much, said Wendell, catching the ball and strolling away for a try. |
It was funny. It’s exactly the type of thing that lets Wendell flatter to deceive?
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The Maori might be largely NPCers, but there's a vague chance they're probably young and even quicker and more skilful than the fur seals! |
I have watched the fur half – the seals were mainly sevens players and successfully drew England A into that type of game at times so that the English pack wasn’t having the influence it should. When England kept it tight and controlled for multiple phases they looked totally in charge.
The Maori are not to be taken lightly.
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It must be tough flying 1st class... |
His wife is a Kiwi – I bet they booked economy and got a free upgrade when they saw who he was?
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Do players often take a break from actually attending matches upon retiring? |
Martin has always said he finds it hard watching the game as he wants to be on the pitch. It’s a consistent comment from the man.
And I’m not sure the fact you pointed out was instrumental to Clive at the very least Finbar.
Well he has tinkered with the selection – six changes in all. But you know what – he still got it wrong!
On the plus side lardy Thommo the line out liability is dropped totally – as is Chris Jones who got pummelled (quite literally) by that feisty second row (nice to see the Kiwis play a lad inspired by Jonno?). And the Aussie makes the bench. The downside is that Regan and Worseley play. Still no place for Corry or Ellis. Hill still at openside. Borthwick starting. Sheesh. Talk about humble pie for me Ravagon – Sir Clive is in a tailspin and cannot get out!
The full squad can be seen here – and frankly Clive deserves what is going to happen this weekend.
England: J Lewsey (Wasps); T Voyce (Wasps), M Tindall (Bath), S Abbott (Wasps), B Cohen (Northampton); C Hodgson (Sale), A Gomarsall (Gloucester); T Woodman (Sale Sharks), M Regan (Leeds), J White (Leicester), S Shaw (Wasps), S Borthwick (Bath), J Worsley (Wasps), R Hill (Saracens), L Dallaglio (Wasps, capt).
Replacements: A Titterell (Sale Sharks), M Stevens (Bath), D Grewcock (Bath), M Lipman (Bath), M Dawson (Northampton), O Barkley (Bath), F Waters (Wasps).
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
It was funny. It’s exactly the type of thing that lets Wendell flatter to deceive? |
Yep. He actually worked hard during the game, made some contributions. Mortlock and Gerard are both fit for this week, apparently. The media has it that Mortlock will return, for Rathbone. And Gerard will miss out. Meaning Wendell will hold his spot. I damn well hope not. Rathbone had a terrific match and has to stay. Wendell has to go. Mortlock to outside centre, Rathbone to Wendell's spot on the wing. I'm not sure how Gerard fits in. Probably on the bench in place of Burke.
quote:
The Maori are not to be taken lightly. |
Watch for the Maori to successfully draw the England team into a 7s game!
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England: J Lewsey (Wasps); T Voyce (Wasps), M Tindall (Bath), S Abbott (Wasps), B Cohen (Northampton); C Hodgson (Sale), A Gomarsall (Gloucester); T Woodman (Sale Sharks), M Regan (Leeds), J White (Leicester), S Shaw (Wasps), S Borthwick (Bath), J Worsley (Wasps), R Hill (Saracens), L Dallaglio (Wasps, capt).
Replacements: A Titterell (Sale Sharks), M Stevens (Bath), D Grewcock (Bath), M Lipman (Bath), M Dawson (Northampton), O Barkley (Bath), F Waters (Wasps). |
So who's the new hooker? Can Voyce tackle? Will Cohen contribute anything other than a gobful to the ref and a penalty turned around? And surely he - Cohen - is living on borrowed time? He did nothing in the World Cup and presumably not a lot since.
EDIT. I notice Howlett is out this weekend and McCaw is doubtful. That will help you. Also interesting to see Mehrtens on the bench. No other option, I suppose, with Evans coming into the team at full back.
Oh, and I've never read so much mumbo jumbo in my life.
Last edited by finbar on 15-06-2004 at 18:06
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:36
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Perhaps the most notable thing about that article is how Zinzan, the man with his finger on the pulse of rugby, said Clive should have taken a natural openside like Neil Back (retired) or Lewis Moody (injured). Clive can only take what is available Zinny. He took that Aussie holidaymaker – perhaps the other options were Andy Hazell (in Canada) or Paul Volley (moving to a French club this summer).
I am sorry Clive treated Backy so badly after the RWC – but amused it came back to bite him last weekend. At 35 Backy can certainly still live with McCaw – Richard Hill couldn’t if he were still 18.
Watched the second half of the Canuck game yesterday. It’s an unusual team the fur seals are building – there is real pace there and they run some very good lines. Defensive patterns need working on though – simply by holding ball and building phases England were able to create gaps as the Canucks committed too many bodies to the breakdowns.
My favourite quotes came from the Canadian TV interviews post match where the reporter described England as “the best CLUB in the world” and Gareth Rees, talking after a 48-23 defeat, claimed that Canada had made very good players look average. So presumably if we had topped 50 we would have been above average? Still he used to play for Wasps so one can expect a little arrogance.
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Wendell has to go. |
Has Eddie named the team?
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Watch for the Maori to successfully draw the England team into a 7s game! |
Mallinder and Diamond will be working hard this week to prevent that happening again. Interestingly the backline options in Canada has real pace – Horak, Scarborough, Cueto, Noon. Some of them should be down south perhaps. The forwards are where the game could be won though – they were rusty as a unit against the Canucks but even so Deacon stole plenty of opposition line out ball. He really is starting to look like a future Senior squad fixture.
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So who's the new hooker? Can Voyce tackle? |
The hooker is Mark Regan (Leeds, formerly of Bath) who has a suspect temperament and whom I do not rate very highly at all – I’d have liked him to play the 23-year-old Titterall instead. Voyce is a better tackler than Simpson-Daniel – but no heavyweight even so. Yes Cohen is living dangerously. He scored an absolutely beautiful try in Paris that was vintage Cohen – pace, power and a lovely hand off – but it’s all he has done this year. He has developed a tendency to drift into the centre channels, which doesn’t suit his strengths – he doesn’t have the best hands in rugby after all. To be honest I think being dropped will be beneficial to help him re-focus on what he really needs to do in an England shirt.
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I notice Howlett is out this weekend and McCaw is doubtful |
Excellent. We need all the help we can get.
The Maori game is 1am Sunday morning – that means watching through an alcoholic filter! 
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
Perhaps the most notable thing about that article is how Zinzan, the man with his finger on the pulse of rugby, said Clive should have taken a natural openside like Neil Back (retired) or Lewis Moody (injured). Clive can only take what is available Zinny. He took that Aussie holidaymaker – perhaps the other options were Andy Hazell (in Canada) or Paul Volley (moving to a French club this summer). |
Zinzan is a f*ckwit in print as he proved prior to and during the World Cup. On top of him forgetting Moody and Back weren't available, he surmised that J**** was worth 5 points to England. Five? He contradicts himself through the article, makes unsustainable statements - if he weren't one of the great #8s, I'd really pay out on the d*ckhead!
quote:
Watched the second half of the Canuck game yesterday. It’s an unusual team the fur seals are building – there is real pace there and they run some very good lines. Defensive patterns need working on though – simply by holding ball and building phases England were able to create gaps as the Canucks committed too many bodies to the breakdowns. |
Sounds like the American approach - run like buggery. And that England approach is what usually sinks the Eagles too.
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My favourite quotes came from the Canadian TV interviews post match where the reporter described England as “the best CLUB in the world” |
Someone tell him it's now New Zealand acording to the blessed rankings.
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Has Eddie named the team? |
As expected, Mortlock for Rathbone, who goes to the bench. Which I think is a real shame. Waugh swaps bench spots with George Smith. Probably predictable. So Wendell's still there and young Mark Gerard misses out!
quote:
Mallinder and Diamond will be working hard this week to prevent that happening again. Interestingly the backline options in Canada has real pace – Horak, Scarborough, Cueto, Noon. Some of them should be down south perhaps. The forwards are where the game could be won though – they were rusty as a unit against the Canucks but even so Deacon stole plenty of opposition line out ball. He really is starting to look like a future Senior squad fixture. |
Hindsight is easy, but Clive should have had the guts and foresight to bring some of those players. As it is now, having played the "best available", he looks stupid with no excuse. Which, of course, pains me immensely.
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The hooker is Mark Regan (Leeds, formerly of Bath) who has a suspect temperament and whom I do not rate very highly at all – I’d have liked him to play the 23-year-old Titterall instead. |
Suspect temperament? There will be a queue to try him out.
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Voyce is a better tackler than Simpson-Daniel – but no heavyweight even so. |
Apart from tackling, he's going to have to think quickly too. Read the play better than S-D did. S-D looked surprised when Rokococo came charging. I'm not sure why. It's all Rokococo ever does.
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Yes Cohen is living dangerously. He scored an absolutely beautiful try in Paris that was vintage Cohen – pace, power and a lovely hand off – but it’s all he has done this year. He has developed a tendency to drift into the centre channels, which doesn’t suit his strengths – he doesn’t have the best hands in rugby after all. To be honest I think being dropped will be beneficial to help him re-focus on what he really needs to do in an England shirt. |
I have to say, I have never been a huge fan, but then I've never seen him do great things. I'm sure he has at some stage in his career. He's always struck me as a fairly one-dimensional burly - albeit quick-ish - lump of a winger.
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The Maori game is 1am Sunday morning – that means watching through an alcoholic filter! |
Goodoh. Bear in mind that alcohol affects colour perception. The team not wearing white is England. Barrack for the team not wearing white.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
Well I thought if I criticised his estimate of Jonno’s points value you might think I was biased or something? |
The problem is - England's problem is - that his value is (was) inestimable. I'm just waiting for the first Englishman in any position of authority to come out and actually say it. By which I mean, admit they're rooted without him until they find an equivalent. Maybe it will happen after Clives goes. To save him the ignominy.
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(Kiwis please read that carefully so as not to miss the treacle heavy irony). |
Have nothing of it, Kiwis. Last weekend's thumping has brought the nasty side.
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You called this one well. I hear the Scots line out worked pretty well last week – but Murray is crocked and Grimes under the disciplinary threat so their one strength may disappear this weekend. I suppose they could get your lads drunk the night before on a fine Islay malt? |
It's ridiculous. Why drop Rathbone at this stage? In front of Wendell? Wendell is obviously being given every possible chance. Hopefully he'll do a hammie. Grimes copped two weeks so he's gone. Don't know about Murray. Yes, they've lost their only real strength from last week - apart from their courage and commitment.
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I would not be surprised if, after two more losses on this tour, he walks away from the job. |
Quit a loser? How could he show his face? I wish I could summon sympathy for him. Well, I don't actually.
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Might work for us. Kaplan should probably have dismissed that feisty Kiwi lock last weekend anyway – so if he can be tempted to punch Regan in front of the ref I’d be happy twice over! |
They're too cunning for that. They'll bait him and niggle him and - hopefully - he'll explode and cop a red card.
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He hit superb form in the November 2002 internationals actually, and was solid in the Slam campaign of 2003. He has phoned in performances ever since really. |
He obviously needs to stay on the wing with a working unit inside him to service him. Which makes him a bit one-dimensional. Like Wendell. At least Tuquiri, because he has such beautiful hands, and a step, can come off the wing and generate things.
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How much do you think I am expecting to drink? |
As Rodney says, "Lips, do not unpurse".
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14-06-2004 13:03
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