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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:36
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Originally posted by Havak
And the image - that was funny. But the parody was very lame. Whoever wrote it must try harder. |
Thank God I didn't think of it. 
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I could be really tempted to move to Italy in a way Finbar – except of course that the ABs are due to tour there in November. You know me - I’d only go and upset people again by pointing out things like the fact there are nearly as many native born Kiwis in the Italian side as in the ABs. |
Yes, but the difference is no one would understand you.  Oh, and unless you lived in the north, they'd bounce a s***** ball off your noggin and accuse you of being party to the Scandinavian conspiracy to oust them from the Euro-whatever-it-is-thing. Actually, that's the only thing that probably keeps me from moving there. Mrs finbar - who doesn't want to leave her bloody daughter behind!  - and funds aside.
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So you think I indulge in pre-emptive excuses – did you catch Clive’s press conference yesterday? |
Yes, I saw it. He's right on all counts. It'll be a great match, regardless. They always are. And if the Wallabies can't beat them on Saturday, they never will.
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I’m not blanket defending him here – a lot of what Finbar accuses him of is spot on – but sometimes he gets a raw deal from the media, and particularly the Aussie media who at times report Englishmen the same way the Gestapo reported on the French resistance. |
His problem is that he can be his own worst enemy. I'm never even sure if it's pure stream of consciousness stuff or there's anything planned about it.
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The other interesting thing is his revisionist stuff. Before the first Kiwi test there was no mention of ‘rebuilding’ or a ‘long season’. He talked of fielding the strongest side he ever has (and that was truly a silly thing to say as it was patently false for the girlies). |
I'm sure his ego - and even his genuine belief in his players - wouldn't have let him talk negatively prior to the first match. The problem is, as you point out, it doesn't leave anywhere else to go. Except sound like excuses are suddenly being made. Who would be a coach these days anyway?
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I doubt the Aussies have been such clear bookies favourites in years? |
I wouldn't put my money on them. I know they have a history of lifting - look at the World Cup - but I don't trust the bastards.
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Of course our squad has not been named because of all the injuries. But I’ll bet with you now he names Borthwick-Shaw instead of having the courage to bring in Corry. I think that’s a mistake as it looks like Eddie has Harrison-Sharpe in the second row with a powerful back line of Lyons at 8 and Samo at blindside – is that right Finbar? |
Harrison, Sharpe, Waugh, Samo and Lyons. With Vickerman and George Smith to join in. A bit of speed, strength and muscle in that lot.
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Our best hope is that any side that has Dunning on the bench has to be vulnerable in the scrum?  |
Your best hope is to put the ball behind that lump who remains on the opposite wing to Tuquiri. Just watch the queue of Wallabies lining up to clean up for him.
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And can I assume that Finbar made a phone call to let certain people know that Jonno was driving to Kings Country for a players reunion on Tuesday? |
I certainly did. Gave them his route, told them to take an especially strong front bumper bar with them. They did. And still came away with a lantern-shaped dent in it!
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:36
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I’m confused – is it the soccer, the conspiracy or the Euro that is the other factor preventing the move?
For what it is worth I don’t think there is anything pre-meditated about what Clive says – I firmly believe it is stream of consciousness stuff.
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The problem is, as you point out, it doesn't leave anywhere else to go. Except sound like excuses are suddenly being made. Who would be a coach these days anyway? |
Not me that’s for sure.
I must also admit I am worried how he will talk ahead of the autumn games too. Assuming the Smiths, Robinsons, Moodys and Wilkos of this world can be fit and ready by then I can see more “strongest team I have ever fielded” nonsense. I would like to see him use the rebuilding expression for a while – should be good for 12 months of excuses?
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I wouldn't put my money on them. I know they have a history of lifting - look at the World Cup - but I don't trust the bastards. |
It’s England. On the ropes. With additional injuries to boot. I know what you are saying but if they cannot lift for this what on earth could they lift for?
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Harrison, Sharpe, Waugh, Samo and Lyons. With Vickerman and George Smith to join in. A bit of speed, strength and muscle in that lot. |
Especially that back row. Hmm. Bet Clive gets that wrong too – I predict Hill-Dallaglio-Worseley and I wouldn’t be surprised if he sticks Jones on the bench instead of Lipman. Hill against McCaw was a mismatch of willingness versus skill – what makes Clive think he can live at openside with Bulldog or George either?
Mind you playing Lipman against guys like that would be fun too.
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Your best hope is to put the ball behind that lump who remains on the opposite wing to Tuquiri |
You know I wouldn’t trust the first up tackler from the girlies to stop him with this team! And he scored perhaps his best try ever against us last year? Well with the possible exception of that Gimme against Scotland? 
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They did. And still came away with a lantern-shaped dent in it! |
And in traditional style he got annoyed when asked about it by the press. Me guv? I’m innocent.
*edit* I see Eddie rose to the bait then?
Last edited by Havak on 23-06-2004 at 17:07
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
I’m confused – is it the soccer, the conspiracy or the Euro that is the other factor preventing the move? |
S*****! I've been there so many times and every radio and every television in every street in every town is blaring it! On Saturdays, on one of the TV channels, they have about an 8 hour variety show which incorporates crosses to the various matches! The variety shows, typically, are co-hosted by a short, balding bloke of about 60 and a 20 year old 6'2" blonde with massive knockers. Bizarre. Every Italian TV variety show features the same co-host set up. Only the names and faces change.
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Not me that’s for sure. |
Modern - professional - rugby has not been a blessing for players or coaches, I think. Remuneration aside.
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I must also admit I am worried how he will talk ahead of the autumn games too. Assuming the Smiths, Robinsons, Moodys and Wilkos of this world can be fit and ready by then I can see more “strongest team I have ever fielded” nonsense. I would like to see him use the rebuilding expression for a while – should be good for 12 months of excuses? |
What's wrong with a simple "we're as ready as we can be"? That's basically all Eddie ever says about the team.
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It’s England. On the ropes. With additional injuries to boot. I know what you are saying but if they cannot lift for this what on earth could they lift for? |
I agree. Having Giteau and Mortlock together in the centres is a massive improvement on last week. Turinui and Mortlock didn't have a clue what the other was up to. Why not? They might have played together once in their lives. Look, I think we'll win, only because we should. But I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if we didn't.
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Especially that back row. Hmm. Bet Clive gets that wrong too – I predict Hill-Dallaglio-Worseley and I wouldn’t be surprised if he sticks Jones on the bench instead of Lipman. Hill against McCaw was a mismatch of willingness versus skill – what makes Clive think he can live at openside with Bulldog or George either? |
No, I can see Hill having problems with Waugh, in particular. The speed and workrate could be a problem. Good luck to whomever takes on Samo. A 17 stone praying mantis on amphetamines. His inexperience has to bring him unstuck at some stage, but I'm keen to see how he handles the higher level.
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Mind you playing Lipman against guys like that would be fun too. |
I fully expect him to forget himself and charge for the wrong tryline.
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You know I wouldn’t trust the first up tackler from the girlies to stop him with this team! |
Oh, there are very few first tacklers who can bring him down if he has some momentum. One of the bonuses is that he usually locks up a couple of defenders. It's what he doesn't do well elsewhere that's the problem. I just can't see the point of playing him. It's highly unlikely he'll be around for the next World Cup, and these are the sorts of games where Rathbone and Gerard should be getting experience.
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And in traditional style he got annoyed when asked about it by the press. Me guv? I’m innocent. |
Sounds like he was very very lucky. I've no doubt Stu Dickinson waved him past on a blind corner.
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*edit* I see Eddie rose to the bait then? |
I'd better go and have a look what he's said since I saw him interviewed today. All he said was the usual - we expect a very physical game but we hope our skills see us through.
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:36
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Caligastia don’t sweat it – I avoided extending an argument I didn’t want to have.
Now I have had a lot of humble pie to digest recently so why not a little more – on careful and non-adrenalin fuelled re-viewing of the first ten minutes Carlos is off the hook as it was indeed a shove and a small tussle before he was speared by Dally (in a move worthy of the WWE?). Robinson is trickier – he had fists formed during the square up but it does indeed seem it was a flat hand push in the face on Joe.
Of course I can’t digest all that without some comeback – given that neither man was the ball carrier and that the contact was definitely not accidental it is still illegal and possibly could still have warranted a yellow.
The great thing is only having had time to review ten minutes worth I can’t comment on the off the ball tackling still.
And if England are the side with discipline problems I don’t understand this statistic from the second test – penalties conceded England Four, NZ Sixteen. Actually I can answer that for you perhaps – Welsh referee?
My anger over the week has transferred mainly to our players as it happens.
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Every Italian TV variety show features the same co-host set up. Only the names and faces change. |
I thought it was the law in Italy that all programs be presented by at least one busty blond (clothing optional?).
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Modern - professional - rugby has not been a blessing for players or coaches, I think. Remuneration aside. |
Witness the new deal between our Player Union and the RFU to cap Representative players (EPS – 60 Elite Players Squad) at 32 games per year and set fixed summer breaks and rest periods. All the agreements have a caveat that the RFU can overrule the agreement to make sure all fixtures are ‘competitive’. So in reality not worth the paper it is written on.
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What's wrong with a simple "we're as ready as we can be"? That's basically all Eddie ever says about the team. |
Simplicity is alien to Sir Clive I think.
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Look, I think we'll win, only because we should. But I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if we didn't. |
Well the squad is out and I’m more nervous than ever – more on that later.
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It's highly unlikely he'll be around for the next World Cup, and these are the sorts of games where Rathbone and Gerard should be getting experience. |
And that’s a little sad – as the World Champions visiting should be the ultimate test. But this team aint all that – only five survivors from November in the starting XV.
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Sounds like he was very very lucky. I've no doubt Stu Dickinson waved him past on a blind corner. |
I dread to think of the conspiracy theories if he had bought the farm in Kiwiland!
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All he said was the usual - we expect a very physical game but we hope our skills see us through. |
Also – “they were not tired last June – why are they tired now?”
Oh god where did you find that Luger link – he is rugby’s forgotten man now. Whereas I’m pleased to see Lipman is the Aussie equivalent of a blue blood (does he wipe the rim of the can with his sleeve before drinking?).
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I do like the implication of the second part though - World cups should indeed be played in NZ. |
The problem is Ravagon I can’t see it happening. World cups are now massive draws and need a tourist infrastructure of some size to handle it – does NZ have this? I understand the Lions tour organisers had real problems finding enough accommodation for next year.
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Sometimes media-baiting can be a useful tactic but I'm not so sure in this case.
Maybe Clive knows something everybody else doesn't? |
He knows he has a contract to 2007 and has to be paid off regardless.
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I wouldn't write England off just yet - they're playing in Queensland after all and you know how the Waratahs players do up there. |
Queensland is not a happy hunting ground for under strength English sides. Oh we could win – but the Aussies will have to give it to us.
We can’t talk S*****? Not even to say Bye Italy, Bye Germany? And after tonight Bye England?
Gerard and Paul possibly out? Someone nobble Gregan and Mortlock and I’ll be happier…
Mark Van Gisbergen is a 26 year old Kiwi, refused a contract by Chiefs a few years ago and playing for Wasps ever since. Plays fullback and fly half. Qualifies for England in September 2005. Solid enough player and had done well for Wasps – but not sure if he can take the step up.
The squad:
England: J Lewsey; T Voyce, M Catt, M Tindall, B Cohen; C Hodgson, A Gomarsall; T Payne, M Regan, J White, S Shaw, S Borthwick, J Worsley, R Hill, L Dallaglio (captain).
Replacements: S Thompson, W Green or M Worsley, M Corry, M Lipman, M Dawson, F Waters, O Barkley.
What can I say – a debutant prop in Tim Payne, the Borthwick-Shaw combo I feared, Lardy on the bench…
The positive – Corry. If Samo starts bullocking over Worseley and Hill Martin will enter the fray – and is fully capable of stopping such a big man too.
*edit* More classic Eddie here from the BBC site:
referees "often get it wrong", teams should "accept refereeing as it is".
"I used to be critical when I was younger, when I still had hair," said the bald Jones.
"But as coaches and officials, we should have a strong commitment to uphold the traditions of the game."
So is Eddie saying he will never criticise an official post-match again?
Last edited by Havak on 24-06-2004 at 17:08
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
Of course I can’t digest all that without some comeback – given that neither man was the ball carrier and that the contact was definitely not accidental it is still illegal and possibly could still have warranted a yellow. |
Nuh. Usually something from the ref like: "Grow up". The knees situation overtook procedings anyway.
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And if England are the side with discipline problems I don’t understand this statistic from the second test – penalties conceded England Four, NZ Sixteen. Actually I can answer that for you perhaps – Welsh referee? |
It was odd. As I recall, the AB penalties were all there, offside and a lot of ruck infringements. I don't know why he missed England infringements which were certainly there. As you say, a Richard Burton.
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I thought it was the law in Italy that all programs be presented by at least one busty blond (clothing optional?). |
Less (clothing) as you move up the body. But, yes, she is mandatory. What I can't fathom is why the co-host is always a balding 60 year old male. I'm not exaggerating.
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Witness the new deal between our Player Union and the RFU to cap Representative players (EPS – 60 Elite Players Squad) at 32 games per year and set fixed summer breaks and rest periods. All the agreements have a caveat that the RFU can overrule the agreement to make sure all fixtures are ‘competitive’. So in reality not worth the paper it is written on. |
As I asked when I first posted this - how will they fit the league, HC, 6 Nations and Tests into 32 games? How many league matches are there outside of HC and internationals? 32's about the same as our limit, and we always have players close to the mark with nowhere near as much rugby. I wasn't aware of the caveat, but I'd've thought it would have to be exercised holus bolus.
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Also – “they were not tired last June – why are they tired now?” |
Yes, I caught up with that. I also liked one of his lines when talking about this pre-match hoo-ha between coaches: "It's a bit of fun". It's got to the point where I don't take much notice anymore.
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Oh god where did you find that Luger link – he is rugby’s forgotten man |
I stumbled across it and couldn't believe my luck. I think it's Planet Rugby. I assume he gets paid for it. What a waste.
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Whereas I’m pleased to see Lipman is the Aussie equivalent of a blue blood (does he wipe the rim of the can with his sleeve before drinking?). |
Um. Joeys just about exists for rugby. They're always at or near the top of the schools comp. They award rugby scholarships. They will take any kid who can play. Lipman could be a reincarnation of one of the Kray Twins for all Joeys would have cared.
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The problem is Ravagon I can’t see it happening. World cups are now massive draws and need a tourist infrastructure of some size to handle it – does NZ have this? I understand the Lions tour organisers had real problems finding enough accommodation for next year. |
I'm sure John O'Neill - now heading up Australian s***** - will have a word to his ARU replacement, Mr Flowers. Expect the Kiwi-Lions series to be transferred to Australia.
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We can’t talk S*****? Not even to say Bye Italy, Bye Germany? And after tonight Bye England? |
No! Not even for those reasons!
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Gerard and Paul possibly out? Someone nobble Gregan and Mortlock and I’ll be happier… |
Gerard definitely out, Paul more than likely from what I saw of him on TV at training. Mortlock isn't yet match fit after his injury time off, so, barring necessity, he won't play the whole game. He didn't last week.
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Mark Van Gisbergen is a 26 year old Kiwi, refused a contract by Chiefs a few years ago and playing for Wasps ever since. Plays fullback and fly half. Qualifies for England in September 2005. Solid enough player and had done well for Wasps – but not sure if he can take the step up. |
Oh well, a couple of people seemed to think he was the answer to a few positions.
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What can I say – a debutant prop in Tim Payne, |
That helps us.
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Lardy on the bench… |
What did you think of Regan last week? I thought he contributed more than Fatty did the week before.
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The positive – Corry. If Samo starts bullocking over Worseley and Hill Martin will enter the fray – and is fully capable of stopping such a big man too. |
But can he stop Samo and Lyons together? They started working in tandem last week. A frightening sight.
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So is Eddie saying he will never criticise an official post-match again? |
Yes, until he does.
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:36
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And it's not like the England players were doing nothing at the time. |
Valiantly defending themselves from those naughty nasty ABs?
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Where were the commentators from in the version you watched? England I presume? |
Yep – we are lucky enough to have overdub from Harrison and Barnes – a latter day Laurel and Hardy. We sometimes get the native commentary – in the tri-nations for example, and bizarrely sometimes in the highlights too. And of course when the overdub messes up too. There is a difference in it – the different guys concentrate on different things. Then again whilst the word ‘harsh’ was used for Shaw so was the word ‘Stupid’ and even the word ‘unnecessary’.
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I was referring more to the biffo related problems. |
That’s a cultural difference again. Biffo is moderately acceptable to most Brits if it’s not stupidly dangerous stuff (like knees in backs!) as long as the penalty is not conceded.
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So the Wallabies are back at the bottom of your list of teams you'd like to see win? |
On Saturday yes.
The rest of the time they are fighting with Wales for that honour.
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The knees situation overtook procedings anyway. |
Well it kind of overtook everything. I am pleased looking back at the thread that Dickinson is not everyone’s favourite official.
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I don't know why he missed England infringements which were certainly there. |
We can hardly be accused of having paid him off.
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What I can't fathom is why the co-host is always a balding 60 year old male. I'm not exaggerating. |
If aiming for a young audience he represents no threat to their fantasies when watching maybe?
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As I asked when I first posted this - how will they fit the league, HC, 6 Nations and Tests into 32 games? |
Did I miss the post? Sorry! The simple answer is they will not. There are 22 league games a year (plus 1 or 2 if you make the play offs), 6 Heineken pool matches (plus 3 elimination rounds if you progress), a possible 4 domestic cup games and 10 tests a year. A potential 47 games for an England player whose club is doing well. So in effect clubs have agreed to rest these Elite players – which means some ‘soft’ fixtures (Italian sides, early cup rounds, league games against Worcester, Saracens and Bath) will hardly be worth watching.
Bath may have been a joke there.
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It's got to the point where I don't take much notice anymore. |
You will notice Eddie has not wound me up for a while either. I think they secretly like each other you know.
Now that was definitely a joke!
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Lipman could be a reincarnation of one of the Kray Twins for all Joeys would have cared. |
My big question is does this mean he is good? I paid little attention to Bath last year except when we played them – and he was fairly quiet in both games IIRC.
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Expect the Kiwi-Lions series to be transferred to Australia. |
Best not to even joke about it – stranger things have happened!
It’s Catt-Tindall in the middle again – clearly looking for that RWC ‘magic’. Mortlock will not need a full game against them if they play like the first NZ test.
The people you are listening to may know more about Van Gisbergen. I can only go from what I saw and he was the fully when we whacked Wasps at their place I think – it wasn’t impressive.
I was unfair to Regan – his performance last week was perhaps his best. Normally his discipline lets him down. Less so this time (more competition you might claim?)
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But can he stop Samo and Lyons together? They started working in tandem last week. A frightening sight. |
Nope he can’t – he is strong but there are limits. He can combine with Dallaglio to form a powerful combo of our own though. Very unlucky lad Corry – a three times Lions test starter at 6 he has always suffered under Clive who loves mobile nonces like Jones and Worseley rather than hard charging brick outhouses like Cozza. Not that Cozza is a slouch - in fact the way Clive has not used him defeats me (especially after he played Jones)
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Yes, until he does. |
He is good value these days. As you say he takes little seriously in the pre-match.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
Did I miss the post? Sorry! |
You were immersed in your funk at the time.
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So in effect clubs have agreed to rest these Elite players – which means some ‘soft’ fixtures (Italian sides, early cup rounds, league games against Worcester, Saracens ) will hardly be worth watching.
Bath may have been a joke there. |
In case it went over people's heads, I edited your sentence for you. So players will be rested. Makes sense. But it's still capable of amounting to quite a few rests for top players in top teams. I suppose that's where the caveat comes into play. Leicester, of course, will be unaffected. 
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My big question is does this mean he is good? I paid little attention to Bath last year except when we played them – and he was fairly quiet in both games IIRC. |
I have no idea how good he is. I notice he was a junior Wallaby, making up the back row with David Lyons and George Smith. Handy team mates. He was with the Waratahs squad but didn't get a game. Presumably that's why he returned to England. History does show that being let go by the Waratahs is usually a sure sign of outstanding talent ignored.
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It’s Catt-Tindall in the middle again – clearly looking for that RWC ‘magic’. Mortlock will not need a full game against them if they play like the first NZ test. |
Yes, well, even with Mortlock not match fit, ours is a very different centre combo this time. Giteau is massively more slippery than Flatley, and he plays very low to the ground, so he's hard to barrel. He's literally a second 5/8.
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The people you are listening to may know more about Van Gisbergen. I can only go from what I saw and he was the fully when we whacked Wasps at their place I think – it wasn’t impressive. |
They may be complete nongs, I don't know. The BBC forum makes for some interesting reading. Amongst the idiots there are some sensible, very knowledgeable posters. They seem to have Clive pretty well pegged.
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I was unfair to Regan – his performance last week was perhaps his best. Normally his discipline lets him down. Less so this time (more competition you might claim?) |
I was watching him during all the argy bargy. He behaved himself. His first outing, maybe he was shy.
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Not that Cozza is a slouch - in fact the way Clive has not used him defeats me (especially after he played Jones) |
I've only seen Jones the once. I'm not sure what his role was, apart from a lineout option. He seemed a bit lost in his other job.
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He is good value these days. As you say he takes little seriously in the pre-match. |
He's also pragmatic. Inscrutable, even. You'll rarely know his true feelings. Clive, OTOH, can't hide his.
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:36
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You were immersed in your funk at the time. |
If you followed a team coached by Sir C and skippered by the Nose you would reach your funk occasionally as well.
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I suppose that's where the caveat comes into play. Leicester, of course, will be unaffected. |
I wonder how many of the Wasps and Bath wannabes can hope to be involved in the autumn quite honestly. Expect many more Tigers in the EPS next season.
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History does show that being let go by the Waratahs is usually a sure sign of outstanding talent ignored. |
The exception proves the rule – McCrae.
Lipman is bound to get some game time – and kick off is a reasonable hour (10:30 BST I think) so I look forward to seeing a Wallaby side missing only three of the RWC final starters take on a team with only five survivors. Lambs to the slaughter?
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Giteau is massively more slippery than Flatley, and he plays very low to the ground, so he's hard to barrel. He's literally a second 5/8. |
Sounds a tough job for the old man and the bang bang boy we are fielding. If only Smith wasn’t on the operation table this summer. If only Jonno was still there. If only wishes were fishes?
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Amongst the idiots there are some sensible, very knowledgeable posters. They seem to have Clive pretty well pegged. |
Thank you. I use a different alias there of course.
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He behaved himself. His first outing, maybe he was shy. |
His first start in NZ – but he has plenty of caps. He is quite old (32 I think). Titterall is the future, as is Chuter perhaps.
What you need to know about Regan is that I can’t take him seriously ever since Bath visited us in 1999 and Richard Cockerill got under his skin so much he ended up throwing to us in the line out and leaving the field pretty much in tears. It leaves a lasting impression.
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He's also pragmatic. Inscrutable, even. You'll rarely know his true feelings. Clive, OTOH, can't hide his. |
Out former coach was the same – Richards that is. Best way to be.
Henry is more emotional than Eddie – less than Clive. But I remind my Kiwi conquerors again that he set new records for Wales at both ends of his tenure. It took him about 12 months to upset absolutely everyone in the Welsh setup.
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Caligastia
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I suppose the civ gold betting is dead? Nobody seemed interested last weekend.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
If you followed a team coached by Sir C and skippered by the Nose you would reach your funk occasionally as well. |
I follow the Waratahs, remember? I've long since learned to laugh.
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I wonder how many of the Wasps and Bath wannabes can hope to be involved in the autumn quite honestly. Expect many more Tigers in the EPS next season. |
Tell me. If there's any truth in that story about the club players grizzling about Clive to their coach while in New Zealand - and I'm sure there was something in it - who might the players have been?
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The exception proves the rule – McCrae. |
Cheap shot. Actually, I was referring to players let go by the Waratahs without even being tried - Mark Gerard being the latest in a long line. They signed him straight from school, nurtured him, then flicked him.
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Lipman is bound to get some game time – and kick off is a reasonable hour (10:30 BST I think) so I look forward to seeing a Wallaby side missing only three of the RWC final starters take on a team with only five survivors. Lambs to the slaughter? |
7pm here, I think, so that's 10am for you. Switch on at 10am just in case. If you switch on at 10.30, discover the Wallabies are already leading 28-0, that Shaw has already been red carded again, you might be less than pleased to have missed the fun.
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Sounds a tough job for the old man and the bang bang boy we are fielding. If only Smith wasn’t on the operation table this summer. If only Jonno was still there. If only wishes were fishes? |
Yeah, you'd have an aquarium full.
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Thank you. I use a different alias there of course. |
Thankfully it seems to be a Tiger-free zone. Plenty of Wasps supporters. Though I suppose they've come out of the woodwork of late. A bit like Gloucester supporters a season ago. Who? Moi?
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What you need to know about Regan is that I can’t take him seriously ever since Bath visited us in 1999 and Richard Cockerill got under his skin so much he ended up throwing to us in the line out and leaving the field pretty much in tears. It leaves a lasting impression. |
A bit of a habit with your England hookers!
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Henry is more emotional than Eddie – less than Clive. But I remind my Kiwi conquerors again that he set new records for Wales at both ends of his tenure. It took him about 12 months to upset absolutely everyone in the Welsh setup. |
I'm sure it depends entirely upon how long he keeps winning. The Tri-Nations will be très interesting this year. Henry's new methods will get a very good work out. That young Bok side looks to have nice potential, even if Ireland were misfiring. They're big and strong and very mobile. And very positive. Playing very different rugby to what Straeuli was producing. And if they can get the ball out to Paulse, and if that other talented young winger - who's even quicker than Paulse - comes back from injury, they will have some fun with nothing to lose. Exactly what we can achieve - well, we'll know more after tomorrow night.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:36
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Originally posted by Havak
I know Finbar has voiced concerns about Phil Waughs IQ over the years so I wonder what he makes of this:
"England are still very physical, very strong up front and Test matches are won up front," said Waugh.
"Whichever forward pack dominates set pieces and the tackle contest will win the game.
"They are still a very experienced forward pack, a very strong forward pack.
"I think Joe Worsley and Richard Hill play hard on the ball, Lawrence plays hard on the ball as well. They lose a little bit of experience losing Neil Back, but not a lot in terms of the combination of their back row." |
Typical Phil Waugh, basically. He always recognises the qualities of the oppo.
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Yes Phil - but what they do lose in those circumstances is someone who grabs the ball and gains some possession. |
Typical Phil Waugh, basically. IQ of a single-cell organism.
Anyway - best of, um, Brisbane luck tomorrow!
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:36
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Originally posted by Havak
being dragged shopping in five minutes |
For a backline coach?
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Did England have a defence? I saw very little evidence of one. There’s no point sticking with teams for fifty minutes up front only to get blown away in a ten minute period where you repeatedly turn over ball like Schoolboys in the girlies trying to run from deep in your own territory. What dismayed me most was the way they didn’t learn from that – after the first time the Wallaby back line strolls through your defence at will you should put boot to ball and drive the ball as deep into touch as possible so you can attack the Wallaby line out (where they did not look impressive, ditto the scrum). But no keep running from deep and spill ball to Rathbone/Tuquiri/Paul (delete as applicable) and make yourselves look like you shouldn’t be on the park. Tactically naive – Jonno would have sorted it, Dally seems incapable. |
I thought the basic tactic - keep the ball in hand, don't give it to us - was sound thinking. England dominated possession something like 75-25 in the first half and sometimes had us stretched. But what did England do with the ball? Showed off some beautiful passing before running into some ferocious defence and losing the ball. Why pass so early? Hold up the ball, draw defenders, break up the defensive line. It looked like the backline had been given its head without any clues how actually to attack.
I suspect booting the ball away might have ended up in the same result. Our lineout fell apart the minute Canon was injured. He'd been throwing pretty well. Paul's throwing has always been dodgy and it stank tonight. But we weren't going to lose all our lineouts. The backline would still have been activated and England's dodgy defence would still have been exposed.
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Thank god the Aussies didn’t get more ball – it could have been much worse! |
I think we still ended up something like 40-60 down on possession. So it's not a matter of how often you've got it, it's what you do with it.
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And such a shame Rathbone picked Australia when deciding what nationality he would like to be – if only he had picked England. |
My prayers for Wendell to tweak his hammy in the warm up were answered! Hard for Eddie to drop Rathbone now. But I still think he's a natural centre. And he still reminds me of a very young Timmy Horan.
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But I take nothing away from Australia – very well played – they had everything from the preceding sentence. The tri-nations will be fascinating – the Kiwi forwards should cause them great problems but the Aussie mid-field will do the same back. Can you arrange for the NZ based games to kick off late at night there so I don’t have to get up at 7am? |
Tonight's England team, for various reasons, isn't a patch on last year's team, but I'm more than satisfied tonight. The Wallabies did it again - performed when they had to. And, yet again, their game tonight in no way resembled their games against the Scots. I mean tactically. Eddie had something orchestrated for England. One day I'll accept that he does this. The scrums were embarrassing, but I'm used to that. In fact, give us a decent front row, and we could be quite a reasonable team.
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Okay so Clive picked this side from the ‘form’ teams (i.e. the ones who did not really contribute to the RWC win) and it has proved to be a disaster. Whatever direction he is following with selection it is not working. There are players on the field who do not belong in Tests – the most obvious today was Waters for me – every move stopped dead as he got the ball because he did too! |
Mr Havak, your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to post the team you would pick for (in academic terms) England's next Test. As if they were playing next week. You can't have J****, and Wilkinson is injured, but everyone else is available. Who would you eject? Who would you insert?
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Any rational coach might have to accept he is not the man to turn this team around and walk. Clive I suspect will have to be fired, such is his ego. And I wish they would do so now – it’s a rebuilding time anyway, better to do it with a fresh coach with fresh ideas. Clive has been badly caught out for the way he rode the coat tails of a greater man (lock jaw). Five losses in eight since the RWC final Clive – four in a row, five from the last six I believe. Defend your record sir – or get the hell out of dodge! |
I suppose his real test - as far as the Lords and Masters are concerned - will be in the autumn. Wilkinson might be back, other injuries will have recovered, weariness can't be used as an explanation. After all, SH teams tour the NH at the end of their seasons. He still start with a clean sheet. See what happens.
Oh, and Nose still isn't a skipper's a*sehole. Running around, red-faced, berating the ref isn't captaining a team. Still, at least he verged on gracious in his after-match interview, even if he continues to overestimate the way his team played on this tour.
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You might note ALL my anger is directed at England this week – specifically the knighted one. |
Played in pretty good spirit tonight, I thought.
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I’m glad Martin has committed to one more year at Welford Road. And whilst I might wish another year after that I think I would rather that in Summer 2005 he joins the coaching setup of England – he then has two years to put some backbone back in the rabbits. How obvious is it now who was the power behind the RWC win? |
I'd bet Civ gold he'll be into the England set up sooner rather than later. He might even be the first England coach never to have coached at club level.
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As for the other game so far it looks like the Pumas did better up front than England!! A Shame the back lines were so disparate? |
I only saw the first half. The Pumas certainly held their own in the set pieces. The ABs were just too slippery in broken play, as expected.
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23-06-2004 08:02
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