17-06-2004 06:06									#61
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

That's beautiful Ludd, beautiful

	17-06-2004 06:19									#62
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Yeah he is about ready to have his Commie ass canned to the frier too....

	17-06-2004 07:48									#63
	Re: "Isn't she a little young?" Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Jac de Molay http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation...ex-minors_x.htm This bothers me for some reason, but I can't put my finger on it.. It might be that it seems to unfairly target the male gender as a whole, as if to sternly remind us all not to succumb to our baser instincts (or "don't go there"), and have sex with minors. I've seen this a lot in some anti-rape campaigns- the assumption that there is an inherent power imbalance simply based on gender, and we all need to be sternly reminded not to act like beasts It's also a little cut-and-dry. The law defines the cut-off between a minor and non-minor at a certain age, but biology doesn't. The assumption that these relationships entail a predator preying on "innocent" teens (assuming they are really that innocent) is also bothersome, it's not that black-and-white in most cases There's also a lot of leeway among states themselves concerning age of consent for marriage and sex, and this clouds the issue even more, IMO. Anyway, this bugs me and it's offensive.

It's Virginia. I lived there for 5 long years.

It sucked

	17-06-2004 08:11									#64
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

btw most girls cannot consent to sex.

While physically they are maturing at a faster rate (at least in the U.S.) mentally they are maturing at a slower rate.

Kids today have no clue about being an adult. Even when they turn 18. Kids don't have to do any work. Back in the day (old geezer talk) kids would have to work on the farm for their parents. Kids learned responsibility and matured much faster than today.

that being said, I think the age of consent can be lowered to 16. Anything lower than that would not be beneficial to everyone involved. Although in conjunction with lowering the age of consent. They need to sell condoms in schools. Or give them out. For the life of me, I can't figure out why they don't do this.

Well one problem is the boys blow them up and clog up the toilets. that could be bad.

Last edited by Dis on 17-06-2004 at 08:17

	17-06-2004 08:15									#65
	Suffering from ads?

I quoted myself. delete this post.

	17-06-2004 08:51									#66
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by St Leo quote: Originally posted by Guynemer With a big old board. With a nail through it. Repeatedly. Yes, a little hate will solve this problem just like it solves all others.

I'm sure if you had a daughter and some 30 year old man was hitting it with her that you'd just want to be a gentleman and talk things over.

	17-06-2004 09:02									#67
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I would feel the same way if my daughter was 30. What's your point? No one wants men touching their daughters in obscene ways. It's not pleasant to think about.

	17-06-2004 09:09									#68
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

There's a big difference when she is underaged and you are supposed to be the one person in the entire world there to protect her.

	17-06-2004 09:10									#69
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Drogue He didn't think she was underage, she lied to get him into bed, it's her deception. What would be the outcome?

Did she talk about her job or university? If you are not sure she's old enough, use caution. Think with your brain, not your testes.

	17-06-2004 09:56									#70
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by St Leo quote: Originally posted by Guynemer With a big old board. With a nail through it. Repeatedly. Yes, a little hate will solve this problem just like it solves all others.

Sorry. I just have a visceral response to adults taking sexual advantage of children. It's a failing of mine I'm trying to work on.

	19-06-2004 04:37									#71
	Remove this text

quote: presumably the young boy didnt get pregnant, though.

No diff. Exploitation is exploitation, regardless of gender.

	19-06-2004 04:39									#72
	Inflate your Upload Space

let's face it. If you're 13 and you score with some 30 old chick.
You're doing good . How can you feel exploited?

Well maybe 13 is a little young. Mabye 14 or 15.

	19-06-2004 04:47									#73
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I'm sure if you had a daughter and some 30 year old man was hitting it with her that you'd just want to be a gentleman and talk things over.

And that's why victims of crimes don't try and sentance offenders. We let impartial judges do it. Violence is not necessary. And if she consents, I wouldn't consider it to be his fault.

	19-06-2004 04:49									#74
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Did she talk about her job or university? If you are not sure she's old enough, use caution. Think with your brain, not your testes.

When we're programmed to use the latter? Evolution has taught us that spreading our seed is good. Traditionally, girls would have sex and become pregnant as soon as they could. Society may have evolved, but humans haven't. Who are we to say that something we're programmed to do, that's been done for thousands of years, is suddenly immoral, without our bodies having a chance to evolve to it?

	19-06-2004 04:53									#75
	Put an end to popups!

quote: You're doing good . How can you feel exploited?

For the same reasons as the little girls. The power imbalance in the relationship.

	19-06-2004 04:56									#76
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Evolution has taught us that spreading our seed is good. Traditionally, girls would have sex and become pregnant as soon as they could. Society may have evolved, but humans haven't. Who are we to say that something we're programmed to do, that's been done for thousands of years, is suddenly immoral, without our bodies having a chance to evolve to it?

We're talking about 12 year old girls, who are less developed than 18 year olds.

Sure, in the past you had a higher maternal mortality, part of which comes from girls who are not fully developed having children.

	19-06-2004 06:16									#77
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Traditionally, girls would have sex and become pregnant as soon as they could. Society may have evolved, but humans haven't. Who are we to say that something we're programmed to do, that's been done for thousands of years, is suddenly immoral, without our bodies having a chance to evolve to it?

You think the concept of women having sex without aiming to become pregnant isn't "traditional"? It features through all of recorded history and is probably a major influence in human antropology and psychosexual attitudes and instincts among both genders.

You can make a weakish argument for paedophilia being a biological condition, considering that we are programmed to seek out women of childbearing age, whereby the best vehicles for the continuation of a given male genome is a relatively young woman, generally the sooner out of puberty the better to provide a safer womb for the child. You could argue that this "young but not too young" instinct is missing in paedophiles, but I don't subscribe to this argument because it is far, far too simplistic and does not account for our changing appearances, so as one would expect of me, my views are far more arbitrary - to each ones own.

quote: Evolution has taught us that spreading our seed is good.

Wrong. Evolution has taught us that spreading our seed is a perogative, not whether or not it is good or bad. It is our nasty habit of imposing ourselves upon other people with the furvent belief that we are correct that causes us to think in black and white good and bad terms. See what I mean about dolphin intelligence?

quote: And that's why victims of crimes don't try and sentance offenders. We let impartial judges do it. Violence is not necessary. And if she consents, I wouldn't consider it to be his fault.

quote: There's a big difference when she is underaged and you are supposed to be the one person in the entire world there to protect her.

A pretty piss poor excuse for a justification of a law.

The fundamental issue is not one of exploitation because, well, look around you. You can make a strong argument for any heterosexual argument being a form of exploitation, so something so subjective is useless in my opinion. The fundamental issue is existential. If we assume that an adult can consent to sex, then when does one develop that ability? Surely this is different for each of us. If you want a consistent (may appear strange since I advocate removing the age issue from the equation but think about that for a second) legal stance, you either use my system as your basis, or ban premarital sex. I'll go with the former thankyou very much.

However, I doubt this problem is going to be solved by a clever bit of philosophising or some draconian law. We should be thinking in scientific terms about the root cause of this issue and an analysis thus. Only then can one think about addressing it.

	19-06-2004 06:19									#78
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I'm sure if you had a daughter and some 30 year old man was hitting it with her that you'd just want to be a gentleman and talk things over.

No, but I'd sooner do that than brutally murder him.

	19-06-2004 06:21									#79
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Dissident let's face it. If you're 13 and you score with some 30 old chick. You're doing good . How can you feel exploited? Well maybe 13 is a little young. Mabye 14 or 15.

You raise a good point. How much of this is genuine concern for the welfare of a child and how much of it is the virgin bride complex? Lets face it, most men like their women unpenetrated, their oil wells untapped and their elections easily won.

	19-06-2004 06:24									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy most men like their women unpenetrated

This is so wrong.

	19-06-2004 06:25									#81
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Let's talk

	19-06-2004 06:51									#82
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Regarding the widespread use of the term pedophilia as a catch all term in cases involving young people: I've seen in the papers several statements from therapists to the effect that for men to feel sexual attraction to a girl who has entered puberty is not considered abnormal in the clinical sense of the word, i.e. it is not considered to be a pedophile reaction. As opposed to feeling sexually attracted to girls who have not yet entered puberty.

Now society's perception may be different, and the law says it's wrong to act on any such feelings, but the professionals who deal with these matters do not consider the attraction itself to be abnormal and therefore not pedophile behaviour. If a person breaks the law by having sexual relations with a minor who has entered puberty, I believe it's a stretch to call him a pedophile.

I'm just sayin'.

	19-06-2004 07:35									#83
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Well, no, it's not technically pederasty, a lot of guys think teenage girls are hot, but still...how about "shameless cradle-robbery"?

	19-06-2004 07:49									#84
	Put an end to popups!

It was just to point out that to a lot of people the word has changed its meaning to become much more broad and at the same time, unprecise and rather meaningless.

It's a bit like the label of being a racist. Nowadays, a Danish bloke is considered a racist if he won't serve pizzas to Germans and Frenchmen. (I'm not kidding.) Or if you're skeptical of Poland entering the EU. It kind of devaluates the original meaning and worse, it tends to sabotage the civilized debate of sensitive issues. Like child abuse or discrimination on the basis of people's racial background (and issues bordering on those at varying degrees).

	19-06-2004 08:08									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: You can make a weakish argument for paedophilia being a biological condition, considering that we are programmed to seek out women of childbearing age, whereby the best vehicles for the continuation of a given male genome is a relatively young woman, generally the sooner out of puberty the better to provide a safer womb for the child.

Not a very good argument at all, since this will be quite a bit later, than the girls we are discussing in the thread. It would speak to the advantage of marrying young, in your early twenties, and late teens.

It says nothing about 12 and 13 year olds.

	19-06-2004 08:26									#86
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Drogue And that's why victims of crimes don't try and sentance offenders. We let impartial judges do it. Violence is not necessary. And if she consents, I wouldn't consider it to be his fault.

Sounds pretty realisitic to me.

30 year old man 13 year old girl.

SURE, it's not his fault.

That's just messed up.

	19-06-2004 09:00									#87
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I was just being facetious, Win, I do see your point. I just neglected to add a smiley. Sorry.

	19-06-2004 09:00									#88
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Winston Regarding the widespread use of the term pedophilia as a catch all term in cases involving young people: I've seen in the papers several statements from therapists to the effect that for men to feel sexual attraction to a girl who has entered puberty is not considered abnormal in the clinical sense of the word, i.e. it is not considered to be a pedophile reaction. As opposed to feeling sexually attracted to girls who have not yet entered puberty. Now society's perception may be different, and the law says it's wrong to act on any such feelings, but the professionals who deal with these matters do not consider the attraction itself to be abnormal and therefore not pedophile behaviour. If a person breaks the law by having sexual relations with a minor who has entered puberty, I believe it's a stretch to call him a pedophile. I'm just sayin'.

I agree with this

acting on that attraction though is wrong and illegal (the youth are taken advatage of, same reason we don't let them enter into permanent contracts or vote)

Jon Miller

	20-06-2004 02:54									#89
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Not a very good argument at all, since this will be quite a bit later, than the girls we are discussing in the thread. It would speak to the advantage of marrying young, in your early twenties, and late teens.

I wasn't justifying that, I was saying that part of the reason men are attracted to younger women may be due to the fact that women in late teens / early twenties are at the peak of their ability to bear children, which may form part of that our reaction to that wonderful chemical testosterone.

quote: SURE, it's not his fault.

He didn't say that. He said ideally one does not take the subjective opinions of the victim into consideration when trying to objectively determine the guilt of an individual and the proportionate/appropriate punishment (sic justice as opposed to vigilantism). You have failed to provide a reason why a situation like this precludes a fair trial, where the result is justice and not some petty gun-toting revenge.

	20-06-2004 04:31									#90
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yes, especially since there are plenty of cases of women getting involved with minors. The most famous being the case of the teacher and her 12 year old student.

Didn't the teacher get sentenced to some serious jail time?