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Ted Striker
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United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Wouldn't the best guide regarding the determination of the legal age of consent be the general historical experience with the outcome of sexual activity at the age groups in question? As I said above, the outcome of a 12 year old's pregnancy are generally pretty dismal, for the girl, the girl's parents, and the baby. Frankly, in my experience this is pretty much true up through the teens. When a teenaged girl has a baby almost always everyone involved suffers, so why let it happen? I'd be interested to learn what the results are in other countries, like the Netherlands. In the Netherlands what generally happens to young teens (13 to 16) who have babies in terms of finishing school, career, future income, and mental health in comparison with other girls? What happens to their babies in terms of placement, scholastic performance, trouble with the law, and etc? |
Once again Doc brings real world wisdom and "DUH!" common sense to the table. 
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Saint Marcus
It usually isn't for the best, indeed. But...teenage pregnancy rates in Holland are 9(!!!) times smaller (per 100,000ppl), despite having an age of concent 6 years below that of the US. You tell me, what is more effective? |
Historically hasn't the social culture of the Netherlands tended to be rather puritanical?
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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Knowledge of contraceptives work wonders. |
everyone knows about cotraceptives here in mid school
and all highschools that I know of hand out comdoms (some mid schools also)
knowledge is not the issue
it is dumb people like my sister who just gets pregnant again and again
Jon miller
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:36
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It's galls me to say this, but for once, Diss is actually correct. Our culture is very different from Europe's. We place heavy stress on individualism as opposed to community, instant gratification over long term goals, and things over relationships. Without a culture shift, we can't handle that kind of freedom. On the other hand, without freedom, we'll never have a culture shift. The problems are worst in the most culturally repressive parts of America, after all. Still, no one's going to say we should sacrifice a generation or two of kids in order to have better great-grandkids.
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Wouldn't the best guide regarding the determination of the legal age of consent be the general historical experience with the outcome of sexual activity at the age groups in question? |
Not really-- rich pregnant 12 year olds will do better than dirt poor 16 year olds on average-- plus its likely that much fewer of the rich will get pregnant due to access to better information and contraception
Outcomes for a person depends much much more on education, intelligence, family support than it does age.
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
As I said above, the outcome of a 12 year old's pregnancy are generally pretty dismal, for the girl, the girl's parents, and the baby. Frankly, in my experience this is pretty much true up through the teens. When a teenaged girl has a baby almost always everyone involved suffers, so why let it happen? |
Two points.
1. The same may be true of 19 year olds that get pregnant as well. heck we could probably find that sexual contact before age 25 has more negative consequences than good. Do we say no one can consent under age 25?
2. You seem focused on pregnancy but that can happen when two 13 year olds get together. I have no statistics to back me up but I would think that the chance of pregnancy eould be higher when two 13 year olds get together ( which would not be illegal under most consent laws) than in the typical predator situation where the predator would not want a pregnancy to raise the probability of detection
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
When a teenaged girl has a baby almost always everyone involved suffers, so why let it happen? |
You could change "teenaged girl" to "impoverished person", would your sentence still hold?
You are focused on outcomes for the pregnant teen but unless you go sexist and define consent laws in a unigender type of way, the law must either say that both commit a crime or no one does, when two 13 year olds get together. A law on this would be inneffective since what 13 year old boy and girl "in love" are going to care about the consequences? They don't care about ruining their lives with a pregnancy so why would they care that they get a stint in juvy?
Sorry Dr Strangelove . . . While I concurr that teen pregnancy is a huge problem, do you really think making sex illegal for teens will solve it? I don't.
Consent laws are about protecting those that are immature from those who are "old enough to know better". Thats why the only system that makes sense is one with a chosen age limit and a range of acceptable ages around the age of the victim.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Last Conformist
Hasn't that of the US? |
Nope, we're populated by the tired, the poor, the huddled masses longing to be free - so that they can own slaves and steal Indian land. Only a small fraction of Americans can claim a Puritan heritage, and I'm not one of them.
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Kucinich
quote:
You are focused on outcomes for the pregnant teen but unless you go sexist and define consent laws in a unigender type of way, the law must either say that both commit a crime or no one does, when two 13 year olds get together. A law on this would be inneffective since what 13 year old boy and girl "in love" are going to care about the consequences? They don't care about ruining their lives with a pregnancy so why would they care that they get a stint in juvy? |
I think you misunderstand - if two people of the same age have sex, and it's consentual, neither is guilty. Otherwise, only the older one is guilty, and only if the age difference is a certain amount (and of course only if one of the parties is underage), which varies from state to state. |
I don't believe I did misunderstand. My whole point was that since teens having sex with other similaraged teens would cause the bulk of pregnancies, of what use is the consent age in dealing with the teen pregnancy issue??
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Kucinich
I think you misunderstand - if two people of the same age have sex, and it's consentual, neither is guilty. Otherwise, only the older one is guilty, and only if the age difference is a certain amount (and of course only if one of the parties is underage), which varies from state to state. |
That's not always true. I've known of cases locally in which a teenaged boy spent time in juvie hall for knocking up a girl approximately his same age (14 - 13). I've known other cases in which an older boy (17) got off scot free for making a 13 year old a mother. Juvenile law in some places gives so much leeway to judges that there is no consistency. You could look at that the other way and say that juvenile law is flexible enough to allow justice to be individually tailored to the circumstances.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:36
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I think one thing is important to point out. In my observation, locking up teenagers who sleep with other teenagers isn't going to help anyone, least of all those concerned, who's lives are being ruined for the sake of half an hour and too much vodka. As for paedophiles proper, I'd say they have some kind of mental illness that requires therapy as opposed to penal correctitude. They won't have any cognitive malfunctions locked or beaten out of them, and if they are released, public is at risk (except more so because of possibility of changed identity) and if they remain locked up, they are taking up precious space and resources that should be spent on incarcerating Muslims who have insufficient evidence against their name to prove a crime but the government doesn't like the look of  . I don't think punitive revenge and blanket, useless laws that get flouted regardless are going to address the issue. We need to get back to basics, the fundamental ethical (not moral), humanistic, medical and philosophical concerns at the centre of this issue, analyse it and resolve, not operate upon a principle of complacency offset by moralistic witch-hunts and politicians prostituting themselves for the votes of simplistic, defense men and women who are all too ready to jump on the nearest available bandwagon for fear of thinking or being seen to advocate paedophilia.
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Drogue
Even the 15 year old boy? Or the 18 year old boy? Does it make it so much worse when the bloke is older, apart from the simple disgust factor, is there a reason? And why can't a 14 year old decide for herself? If she's as mature as most 14 year olds seem to be nowadays, I think she's perfectly capable to decide for herself when she wants to have sex. Personally, I'd consider murder worse than sex with a teenager. |
You really don't know what you are talking about. Simply, kids at 13-14 simply don't have the ability to discern the consequences of the actions that biology has equipped them (however recently) for. Studies of much older teenagers show that they really only start catching on around 18-19, ie when their brains finally stop developing and take their adult form. This is why we have laws that make it illegal for minors to form contracts among many other things. Simply put, they are impulsive and make many often serious or even deadly errors in situations where restraint is called for. It isn't simply a case of lack of experience, though the combination often compounds the problem.
A lot of kids seem like they know what they are doing I'll grant you. These kids fall into two general categories. Category one is kids who have received strong and credible instruction in how to behave / succeed in life from their parents or other people who they admire. These children are more resistent to stupidity simply because someone they trust and admire would disapprove. They may or may not make the right decision in circumstances where their training has left them ill-prepared. Of course some of these children are greatly impacted by adults whose advice is poor at best, but experience will usually temper this problem over time.
The second category of children who seem to know what they are about are those who have stepped up into the role of adults. This usually happens due to an adult sized hole in their own family (actual or effectual) which needs to be filled by someone, and they have either voluntarily or not so voluntarily filled the void. These children talk the talk very well, and often have an impressive collection of adult software. Unfortunately they still have the child's hardware. Many of these children aggressively seek to grow up as fast as they can, including seeking out sexual encounters as a means of further establishing themselves as adults in order to hurry themselves through childhood as fast as they can go. They don't understand developmental psycholgy or physiology and consider the process of maturing as simply a to do list, and thus the implications for their long term mental and developmental health. This is why we hold the adult in the situation accountable. The risks for them are only legal, and they should have a better handle on the situation and their own behavior than the child.
One final note, I'll bet that a lot of these pregnant girls end up in the second category via having been molested by their fathers or more likely stepfathers / mom's boyfriend, or were allowed to be molested by their similarly f-ed up and seemingly blind guardians.
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Drogue
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Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Kucinich
Correlation != causation. I believe the Netherlands have higher taxes than the US - clearly those must be the reason  |
I never claimed it was What I claimed was ha a figure like that dismisses much of the idea that a higher age of consent leads to lower teenage pregnancy rates. Many people seemed to be trying to argue that teenage pregnancies being bad is a reason for a high age of consent, and I was pointing out that there is no evidence to suggest that a high age of consent leads to lower teenage pregnancies, and indeed, there was a correlation in the opposite direction.
Teenage pregnancies are bad, but raising the age of consent won't help that, education will. The age of consent should be as it sounds, the age at which someone is capable of consenting. If someone can legally sign a form choosing where to go to college, a decision that requires much thought and planning, then why aren't they capable of choosing whether or not to have sex? I think the latter takes much less thought, and generally is a much less important decision.
IMHO, most 14 year olds can decide whether or not they are ready for sex, so I see no reason why the state should take that decision away from them. I think they can decide for themselves better than the state can with blanket legislature.
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Jac de Molay
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Detroit
Sep 2001
time: 05:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Saint Marcus
So you are saying that Americans are less responsable than Dutchmen?  |
No, what he is saying is that we basically live in a society where we are bombarded by messages that:
MORE = BETTER.
In a nutshell, the more you have, the bigger house you own, the bigger SUV you drive, and the more you consume, is the pinnacle of achievement and acceptance.
Now, is throwing legal drugs, and unfettered access to guns, into this mix a wise thing to do?  He's a knucklehead, but for once I agree with him.
quote:
please. what do you think is the reason we have a so much lower teenage pregnancy rate? Of course lowering the age of concent isn't the sole answer, but by decriminalising (or de-immoralising) teens having sex, and educating them on the issue and by talking openly to them about it, things will drastically improve. |
The differences between the societies are so marked that it's impossible to say if things would improve if the same policies were applied here. Teen pregnancies and STD rates among minorities are through the roof, and it's hard to say that you can "plug in" certain policies and expect good results. And again, all teens are bombarded by messages that sex is all cool and all good, and I'm skeptical that such policies would have a marked effect either way.
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22-06-2004 08:49
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