23-06-2004 21:53									#91
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Admiralty law.

As long as we are discussing th intricacies of Admiralty law if you caught people trying to illegally board your ship and shot them, would it be murder?

	23-06-2004 21:53									#92
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quote: What's wrong with People for Eating Tasty Animals?

nothing, my friend, nothing.

	23-06-2004 21:54									#93
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Yes, of couse, Luddnik - movements are better served when the most attention is given to the shrillest and most irrational speakers, because instead of "ignoring" the movement, the loons manage to utterly discredit it themselves.

If a movement ditched anyone who someone was annoyed by, the movement would cease to exist before it even got started. The whole point is that they are going against the status quo and challanging convention - of course people are going to be annoyed by them, hate them, call them names, call them irrational, ect... That's the expected reaction by any movement becuse if they didn't recieve that, then a 'movement' wouldn't be neccisary.

	23-06-2004 21:56									#94
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Another way to put it is would you want MS to control food production, like how much your country would have to pay to get its seeds?

The GM debate to me is about control - who controls/decides who's going to starve or not. So its actualy a debate about freedom. I think the big companies(mostly but not exclusively in America) have a hidden agenda that goes beyond the scientific benifits.......

Controling the worlds food production would make you even richer than if you controlled the oil

GM is evil

justified Piracy is good (in the intrests of world freedom against terror )

	23-06-2004 21:58									#95
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see, there's a difference between being an effective and vocal member of a movement, and being stupidly controversial to the point of alienating potential members.

peta has that problem what with their chicken-to-jews comparisons, or their whoring out women to get others to be vegetarian. greenpeace has this problem with "protests" like these. the conservatives have this problem with people like michael savage and ann coulter.

	23-06-2004 22:01									#96
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quote: Another way to put it is would you want MS to control food production, like how much your country would have to pay to get its seeds? The GM debate to me is about control - who controls/decides who's going to starve or not. So its actualy a debate about freedom. I think the big companies(mostly but not exclusively in America) have a hidden agenda that goes beyond the scientific benifits....... Controling the worlds food production would make you even richer than if you controlled the oil GM is evil

except this is a silly argument, imho. the problem here isn't the gm food. the problem is the fact that the system as it stands allows something that could be considered by its very existence "open source" (anybody can modify it, everybody has a copy of it...) is being forced into a patent regime where specific people control it.

why shun a technological advance because of a stupid social system?

gm foods are not the evil. it's the fact that megacorps can patent something that you shouldn't be able to patent.

	23-06-2004 22:03									#97
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True but when you live in a world where MegaCorps decide the law - its a simple choice to me, i wont support their acts of terror against the human race

but i will support acts of Piracy or even general law breaking, when the cause is a just one - no matter how misguided or badly thought through.

Americans understand about freedom - i dont understand why they seem so surprised by the anti GM food movement in europe, its about a fundemental freedom of all humans, to be able to feed themselves? when you take that away what you have in effect is a world of slaves

Last edited by child of Thor on 23-06-2004 at 22:09

	23-06-2004 22:12									#98
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again, it's not the gm food. it's not the science behind it that we should be protesting. it's the corporate system as it stands.

and that's funny, coming from europe, with your nations instituting a software patent regime.

	23-06-2004 22:15									#99
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How does GM food = "people not being able to feed themselves."

Sorry, this is not a debate I've been involved in before, so I need to be brought up to speed.

-Arrian

	23-06-2004 22:23									#100
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc As long as we are discussing th intricacies of Admiralty law if you caught people trying to illegally board your ship and shot them, would it be murder?

It would at least be a triable issue. Absent some evidence of intent on the boarder's part, there's no absolute right to kill boarders. The question is how did they get on board without being repelled in some other fashion? Certainly there's a right to resist unlawful boarding, and if the means of resistance are reasonable in view of the threat, I don't see a problem if a boarder or two accidentally went in the drink, etc.

	23-06-2004 22:25									#101
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd If a movement ditched anyone who someone was annoyed by, the movement would cease to exist before it even got started. The whole point is that they are going against the status quo and challanging convention - of course people are going to be annoyed by them, hate them, call them names, call them irrational, ect... That's the expected reaction by any movement becuse if they didn't recieve that, then a 'movement' wouldn't be neccisary.

It's not a question of "anyone who someone was annoyed by"

It's a question of "people who are so far out on the fringe, and so stridently, hysterically vocal compared to the rest of us, that they undermine the movement and alienate a large number of potential supporters."

	23-06-2004 22:29									#102
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Q Cubed, tell me more about this whoring of vegetarian chicks...

	23-06-2004 22:43									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian How does GM food = "people not being able to feed themselves." Sorry, this is not a debate I've been involved in before, so I need to be brought up to speed. -Arrian

well this is exactly a point in case - many people do not know what GM food is, they think its just scientificaly enhanced to be pest resistant etc, and so do not understand the GM backlash from some countries, thinking it just superstitous nonsense etc. You could do a quick google to get up to speed - i found one link mostly relevant to the uk here .

Its not perfect, but it has some info and links to stuff related to GM food.

In a nutshell GM food/crops cannot reproduce themselves(like natural crops/plants can).
So each season of growing you need to purchase new seed from a company that sells them. There is a possibility that introducing these types of crops into an enviroment can cause a sort of inter breeding with the native speices of crop, that in turn may evolve into a non-reproducing speices(something happend like this with Maize in south america a little while ago).

Once we as the people on this planet can no longer grow our own food without having to ask for it from some company - we will be slaves.

I'm being over the top deliberately - the general lack of concern over this needs some highlighting

And to bring it back on topic : Greenpeace pirated the ship as it was in the waters of a country(Wales) that has voted to keep itself GM free.

Anymore news on the stand off - i cant find anything over here - which is a bit odd

	23-06-2004 23:03									#104
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PETA does not undermine the animal rights movement... it's practicaly it's only mouthpiece! People who say "I would be more understanding of their cause if they wheren't so disagreeable" are not at all interested in their movement, and wouldn't be regardless. They just don't want to hear about it. And that's what activism is about - making people hear it wether they want to or not, otherwise the issue would just fade away into obscurity.

	23-06-2004 23:12									#105
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i call bullshit on peta's being the only mouthpiece. the humane society does a lot of the same things, and hell--it's actually responsible, too, seeing as i don't see peta running any animal shelters for their pets (oh, i mean, "animal companions").

and guess what? the humane society doesn't compare the plight of chickens to the plight of jews. the humane society doesn't tell kids to drink beer instead of milk. the humane society doesn't tell people to not donate to the march of dimes.

people who care about animals generally also care about people too, and when you have a group like peta shrilly telling people to not help, or potentially harm, their fellow man to conceivably in a remote way help animals...

tell me that doesn't alienate people.

	23-06-2004 23:14									#106
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quote: In a nutshell GM food/crops cannot reproduce themselves(like natural crops/plants can).

this is also a myth. most gm foods yes, do have a "terminator" gene that proscribes the plant from reproducing. that was a design choice.

say what you will about how stupid that is, but there is nothing preventing said gm food/crops from reproducing themselves if such genes were not implanted.

	23-06-2004 23:14									#107
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd PETA does not undermine the animal rights movement... it's practicaly it's only mouthpiece!

That's quite sad considering the tendency for funding eco-terrorism the group displays.

	23-06-2004 23:17									#108
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besides, in georgia, it wasn't peta that lobbied strongly to make animal cruelty a felony. it was the humane society. peta didn't even give a ****. they were too busy dressing up women in lettuce and throwing red paint on women with fake furs.

	23-06-2004 23:18									#109
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor well this is exactly a point in case - many people do not know what GM food is, they think its just scientificaly enhanced to be pest resistant etc, and so do not understand the GM backlash from some countries, thinking it just superstitous nonsense etc. You could do a quick google to get up to speed - i found one link mostly relevant to the uk here . Its not perfect, but it has some info and links to stuff related to GM food. In a nutshell GM food/crops cannot reproduce themselves(like natural crops/plants can). So each season of growing you need to purchase new seed from a company that sells them. There is a possibility that introducing these types of crops into an enviroment can cause a sort of inter breeding with the native speices of crop, that in turn may evolve into a non-reproducing speices(something happend like this with Maize in south america a little while ago). Once we as the people on this planet can no longer grow our own food without having to ask for it from some company - we will be slaves. I'm being over the top deliberately - the general lack of concern over this needs some highlighting And to bring it back on topic : Greenpeace pirated the ship as it was in the waters of a country(Wales) that has voted to keep itself GM free. Anymore news on the stand off - i cant find anything over here - which is a bit odd

Ok, following your "in a nutshell" info, I see only one thing that worries me: the chance of screwing up the natural environment.

The issue of GM crops not reproducing isn't a problem to me unless they can indeed cross with natural plants and somehow stop them from reproducing. Because if it's only the GM crops that do not reproduce, the solution if you don't want to be dependent on an Evil Corporation (tm) is to not buy GM crops and use the regular stuff. That's fine, it's a choice one can make. But if having GM crops out there has the potential to screw up agriculture such that there is not choice... that's a huge problem. So it needs to be studied, and perhaps the GM companies need to be strictly regulated such that they are required to rigorously test the potential downside to their products.

Thanks for the info, and the link.

-Arrian

	23-06-2004 23:21									#110
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Oh, and by the way, I'm leaning towards Q's position on this: patents on food are a bad idea.

Or, perhaps a decent compromise would be to allow the patent only once for 20 years, and then no renewals - the stuff becomes fair game for all.

-Arrian

	23-06-2004 23:26									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed they were too busy dressing up women in lettuce and throwing red paint on women with fake furs.

I always wondered why they never did that to Bikers wearing leather.

	23-06-2004 23:30									#112
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I'm sure it had nothing to do with concern for their physical well-being, Dino.

-Arrian

	23-06-2004 23:30									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger That's correct, you can't grow next year's crop with seeds from the heavest this year. Which means big biotech companies are trying to undermine nature to create a monopoly, or at least a cartel, in the food market.

...

It seems to me this was introduced at least partly in response to concerns aired by you:

quote: For starters, the spliced genes get into the enviroment, screwing up everything.

It also seems that, worst case, a farmer uses normal crops, and he also has the option of paying each year to use bioengineered crops. How have the companies done anything wrong, if all they've done is provide an opportunity?

	23-06-2004 23:33									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian edit... Thanks for the info, and the link. -Arrian

Your welcome, we need to understand all the far reaching consequences of what GM is about. I find it funny(well mostly scary) when we play God with our science - with our new technological prowess we gain a better chance of ruining the natural world, and ourselves, at each play session

And Q Cubed, if its a myth - then you shouldn't be able to add 'its true' in the next sentence

Sure they could take the terminator gene out - but its not something anyone can do, and i bet you all the money in the world(could i say all the GM food in the world...please ) that for the most part it will be kept in.
They want a return on their investment after all - hungry slaves that pay forever

And another hypothetical:

Say it was China's bio tech industies leading the way in this, and just to make it feel more threatening, they also had a way unknown to the US bio tech companies, of introducing a gene that effected the soil to the extent that only crops from that particular company could be regrown(when bought) in the same soil? Is this ok too?

	23-06-2004 23:34									#115
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor Once we as the people on this planet can no longer grow our own food without having to ask for it from some company - we will be slaves.

Or you start using normal crops again... DUH.

	23-06-2004 23:41									#116
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quote: And Q Cubed, if its a myth - then you shouldn't be able to add 'its true' in the next sentence

hey, genius, you made the claim that all gm foods were like this, which is not the case. i was pointing that out.

quote: Sure they could take the terminator gene out - but its not something anyone can do, and i bet you all the money in the world(could i say all the GM food in the world...please ) that for the most part it will be kept in.

it will be kept in so long as those companies are able to put their dumbass gene patents on it.

quote: They want a return on their investment after all - hungry slaves that pay forever

like kucinich says, and like any sensible response: don't use gm crops. just don't infringe on the right of others to use those gm crops if they want to.

	23-06-2004 23:41									#117
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By the way, that link child of Thor posted has just a slight agenda.

I really liked the picture with "Genetically Modified" spelled out in Spagettios on a piece of toast (it does look disgusting, just like it's supposed to).

Here are the basic claims made on that site:

quote: Genetic engineering is imprecise and unpredictable. But most testing is carried out by the very biotech companies that have the most to gain from results that say GM food is safe. Growing GM crops also threatens wildlife and the production of GM free foods. What's more some GM crops could allow more pesticides to be used. The irony is that we don't need GM food. The biotech industry says it will feed the world's poor - but leading third world charities - like Christian Aid - dismiss their claims.

The site is not only against GM food, it's against Supermarkets and global trade (it has a great little argument that since food that might be grown in the UK is imported from cheaper producers, this harms the environment, leading to global warming ).

Their mission:

quote: Real Food for everyone Everyone should have access to real food that is - Fresh Affordable Locally produced Free from pesticide residues Provides a fair income to farmers Free from genetically modified ingredients

Fresh - good.
Affordable - good, but precisely what they argue AGAINST most of the time.
Locally produced - exactly, see "affordable."
Free from pesticide residues - Good, but not easy. At least for now, no pesticides = lots of crops destroyed by bugs.
Fair Income to Farmers - Define fair income, please, and explain why farmers deserve to be guaranteed this any more than any other group?
Free from GM ingredients - if they are dangerous to human health or can be shown to adversely effect the environment, ok. Otherwise, it really seems like fearmongering to me.

-Arrian

	23-06-2004 23:43									#118
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quote: Say it was China's bio tech industies leading the way in this, and just to make it feel more threatening, they also had a way unknown to the US bio tech companies, of introducing a gene that effected the soil to the extent that only crops from that particular company could be regrown(when bought) in the same soil? Is this ok too?

and let's say a company did that. once uncovered, let's imagine the backlash against that company.
yes, corporations function in their own best interests. but i highly doubt any corporation would be so stupid as to do something that suicidal.

	23-06-2004 23:45									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich quote: Originally posted by child of Thor Once we as the people on this planet can no longer grow our own food without having to ask for it from some company - we will be slaves. Or you start using normal crops again... DUH.

If there are any left? The case in South America destroyed Maize production of native naturaly grown speices - the only way back for them is to rip up all the maize(wild/farmed) and bring in uncontaminated crops from else where - a huge logistical problem, one that the country could ill afford. Or carry on being dependant on the supply of GM each season.

	23-06-2004 23:46									#120
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If that could be done, then yes, I'd wager that would be deemed illegal. ESPECIALLY if it was not clearly stated up-front to anyone thinking of purchasing the product.

And if such a thing were advertised, anyone who bought it is an idiot.

-Arrian