23-06-2004 23:47									#121
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Ok, what happened in SA with Maize?

If the GM crops cannot reproduce, how do they destroy the natural crops?

-Arrian

	23-06-2004 23:51									#122
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd otherwise the issue would just fade away into obscurity.

As it should.

	23-06-2004 23:55									#123
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Q cubed - i did a stick out tongue smilie, i just found your sentence with myth+true together interesting thats all
And i did actually say 'most' not 'all' in an earlier post. I think the scope for abuse in the GM thing is too great to take a chance on the good nature of big corps.

And Arrian yes - Friends of the Earth are pretty radicall it was the first link i could think of for info on GM. their info is well meant and balanced with a more scientific site(we have the argo minestry over here), you can find all the dangers you should be aware off

And the Maize stuff in Sth America happend a couple of months ago i think - i first read it on the bbc website(it will be inthe archive i guess), then i followed some links from there(friends of the earth being one of them).

I dont know how the speices got mixed up, the article was quite good though and had links to more scientific stuff

I'm just an armchair gardener at present(i have grown food in the past though), and my knowledge of GM/agri has just led me to beleive i need to be concerned about it, keep an eye on what the companies are trying to slip in quietly through the back door. And i'm only half joking about all becoming slaves if GM were to take over world food production

maybe link to maize problem this is in Mexico though, but it sounds a liitle like what i remember?

again i just used a simple google to get the link and have never seen this article before, so no idea if good or bad - but the message i think is one of caution.

Last edited by child of Thor on 24-06-2004 at 00:28

	24-06-2004 00:30									#124
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor If there are any left? The case in South America destroyed Maize production of native naturaly grown speices - the only way back for them is to rip up all the maize(wild/farmed) and bring in uncontaminated crops from else where - a huge logistical problem, one that the country could ill afford. Or carry on being dependant on the supply of GM each season.

Huh? Just replant, using normal seeds. Are you seriously saying ALL sources of non-GM crops will go away?

	24-06-2004 00:45									#125
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edit: crazy poly bug crash thing

	24-06-2004 00:48									#126
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I think this is the problem - no one is really sure, the case (in mexico it might have been?) i was remembering had the additional complications that because of the native plant contamination - to be sure of getting it out of the food chain, it would require the destruction of ALL the current present crops, wild and farmed. If a contaminated crop was left it could have started the process all over again and then back to square one.

this is one of the main points - the big agri companies put a hell of alot of pressure on farmers/governments to get this GM **** out in the fields, but not enough has been done IMHO to ensure the safty of such a policy. Mexica/South Amercia(and others no doubt in poor countires) show us examples of where this can go very badly wrong.

All i know is i will fight tooth and nail, politicaly and if need be with force, to keep my land free from this stuff - we dont really need it, and i want my children to grow up able to provide the bare neccesities for life if need be, i wont sell them into servitude through complacency.

My line is rather hard core on this - but for me being able to produce my own food for free with natures blessing is the most basic of rights i demand, as my forefathers had before me.

	24-06-2004 00:58									#127
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Dear gates, not the GM debate again. Didn't we already had a thread about this where most (if not all) these points about this debate were argued about?

	24-06-2004 01:01									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Ok, what happened in SA with Maize? If the GM crops cannot reproduce, how do they destroy the natural crops? -Arrian

I'd assume cross pollination. They obviously aren't going to outbreed them.

	24-06-2004 01:02									#129
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor I think this is the problem - no one is really sure, the case (in mexico it might have been?) i was remembering had the additional complications that because of the native plant contamination - to be sure of getting it out of the food chain, it would require the destruction of ALL the current present crops, wild and farmed. If a contaminated crop was left it could have started the process all over again and then back to square one.

If a contaminated crop survived, then there would be no problem, because it could reproduce in the first place.

	24-06-2004 01:02									#130
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor All i know is i will fight tooth and nail, politicaly and if need be with force, to keep my land free from this stuff - we dont really need it, and i want my children to grow up able to provide the bare neccesities for life if need be, i wont sell them into servitude through complacency. My line is rather hard core on this - but for me being able to produce my own food for free with natures blessing is the most basic of rights i demand, as my forefathers had before me.

Thus, you're an extreme luddite. Good to know...

	24-06-2004 01:03									#131
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Not everyone has participated in every debate VJ. If it's so boring to you just don't participate. (I think the "not x topic again, haven't we already argued this." post has been made before anyways )

	24-06-2004 01:07									#132
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We can feed the whole world today without GM crops.

Though I am not opposed to them, they aren't necessary.

	24-06-2004 01:10									#133
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We need GM crops with opposable digits and a propensity towards violence. We've been killing plants so long, it's time to make the fight a little more fair...

	24-06-2004 01:13									#134
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quote: All i know is i will fight tooth and nail, politicaly and if need be with force, to keep my land free from this stuff - we dont really need it, and i want my children to grow up able to provide the bare neccesities for life if need be, i wont sell them into servitude through complacency. My line is rather hard core on this - but for me being able to produce my own food for free with natures blessing is the most basic of rights i demand, as my forefathers had before me.

well, then, allow me to retort.

All i know is i will fight tooth and nail, politically and if need be with force, to ensure that technological and scientific advance is never halted - we need it, and i want my children to grow up wth the best of everything, i won't let their lives be shortchanged because some short-sighted person was afeared of some of that newfangled technowizardry and put a stop to it.

My line is very hard core on this - but for me being able to live in an era of enormous and unfettered progress of information is the most basic of rights i demand, as so few of my forefathers had before me.

	24-06-2004 01:28									#136
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quote: Personally, I go by the belief that if it isn't broken, you shouldn't fix it, 'cause we just end up ****ing around untill there really is a problem.

I can just imagine you sitting there, all curled up, fearing the worse - - GM Beans From Outer Space!!!

	24-06-2004 09:01									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed except this is a silly argument, imho. the problem here isn't the gm food. the problem is the fact that the system as it stands allows something that could be considered by its very existence "open source" (anybody can modify it, everybody has a copy of it...) is being forced into a patent regime where specific people control it. why shun a technological advance because of a stupid social system? gm foods are not the evil. it's the fact that megacorps can patent something that you shouldn't be able to patent.

But the more fundamental question is "Why do we need GM food?"

As I point out before, there's no food shortage globally. It's the distributioin that's the problem.

So, GM food is just a solution looking for a problem. The only reason for it is large biotech companies are pushing GM food, with the aim of monopolising the seed supplies.

	24-06-2004 09:51									#138
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what about the question: "why don't we need gm food?"

it's a shame if we don't allow scientific progress because we're too short-sighted to see an immediate need for it now. the technologies developed now in making gm foods will go a long way towards our understandingn of genetics.

	24-06-2004 09:56									#139
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quote: As I point out before, there's no food shortage globally. It's the distributioin that's the problem. So, GM food is just a solution looking for a problem. The only reason for it is large biotech companies are pushing GM food, with the aim of monopolising the seed supplies.

Increased yields wouldn't be another motivation?

	24-06-2004 12:29									#140
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quote: Originally posted by GePap We can feed the whole world today without GM crops. Though I am not opposed to them, they aren't necessary.

With GM crops and other biotech inventions, I heard some estimation that the globe could feed up to 50 billion people.

But hey, why are we discussing GM crops at all? That's exactly what the pirates wanted, right? Don't give in to terrorism!

	24-06-2004 12:37									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed what about the question: "why don't we need gm food?"

Is this question in the same category as "why don't you need another hole in your head?"

The problem with GM food right now is the same problem we have been facing for many decades: namely we rush to use a new product or technology before we even know how it impacts on the environment and everything else. You know, things like DDT and CFC. The list just keeps going on, and we haven't learned a damned thing from our mistakes.

quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed it's a shame if we don't allow scientific progress because we're too short-sighted to see an immediate need for it now. the technologies developed now in making gm foods will go a long way towards our understandingn of genetics.

You are confused. Science and technology are two different beasts. Even without GM food, we can still acquire new knowledge in genetics. In fact, GM is but an application of genetics, which we can do without, at least for food.

	24-06-2004 12:41									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Increased yields wouldn't be another motivation?

There are other ways to increase yield, and other things can be done. For example, if cattle aren't fed and is strictly regulated to grazing on grass only, that would save a lot of food.

	24-06-2004 13:10									#143
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Hehehe, I'd like to see Greenpeace try this at a Texas port - or for that matter, ANY US port. God that'd be some great TV, if they televised the forthcoming beatdown

	24-06-2004 15:02									#144
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It came anywhere near any us warship (or any US ship in the vicinity of one) they would be smoked at 300 yards. Like it has been said, this would be a great terrorist tactic, to just imitate the Green "Peace" movement.

And about this whole raising the issue "even if people don't want to hear it," I am all about letting you say yout peice, but when it is obvious to all they everyone has heard, thought about, and rejected you stupid ideas give it a rest.

	24-06-2004 22:02									#145
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quote: The problem with GM food right now is the same problem we have been facing for many decades: namely we rush to use a new product or technology before we even know how it impacts on the environment and everything else. You know, things like DDT and CFC. The list just keeps going on, and we haven't learned a damned thing from our mistakes.

granted, it's a problem. we're still here, aren't we? no matter how much rigorous testing something goes through, you'll still have unintended consequences. you can't keep science locked up in a lab somewhere; if you publish any scientific work, somebody else will take it, and whether you like it or not, they might just release it to the world.

quote: You are confused. Science and technology are two different beasts. Even without GM food, we can still acquire new knowledge in genetics. In fact, GM is but an application of genetics, which we can do without, at least for food.

that's like saying even without stem cell research, we can still acquire new knowledge in genetics and human biology.

sure, we can, but why shun a potential avenue of research just because you're squeamish about its possibilities?

	24-06-2004 22:38									#146
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my irrational fear of GM is about as well founded as most of the 'love GM' brigade here

It could be about a lack of respect for nature? but i smell a lot of 'right winger' wafting from my screen, so that leads me to believe its probably just a lack of respect for most things.

Just because i think its a good idea to be cautious about the way we treat our planet and its very complex enviromental systems - doesn't make me anti science or progress(in fact my old man is a world leading agri-scientist(now retired)), so i've seen first hand the mistakes we have made in our arrogance(DDT, Airial crop spraying of nasty chamicals, Cane toad introduction in Australia etc etc), and the success.

We constantly have dropped the ball with devestating consequences. So when a technology comes along that we know too little about i think it prudent to seek a slower introduction + further tests, especialy when the need for the technology is debatable in the first place and the odd blunder has already caused enough damage. Just seems a reasonable approach to me?

And IMO Pirates still rule when they stop GM entering my country

	24-06-2004 22:52									#147
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do i count as a right-winger now?

trust me, i can see what rampant development can do to a country--there are places in korea where you wouldn't want to swim, even now after a fledgeling green movement has started.

but see, what you were saying wasn't slowing introduction or adding further tests--how it came across was that you didn't want it in the first place. that's what i took issue with. nowhere in your previous posts do you mention having more tests instead of a breakneck release pace; you said you would fight tooth and nail to see that it is never introduced.

are you changing your position now? because this new position of yours, or at least, what seems like a new position, i don't mind so much, and can agree with. retarding the rate of research isn't the best of all outcomes, but it's better than the no research you seemed to be suggesting.

	24-06-2004 22:54									#148
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat It's not a question of "anyone who someone was annoyed by" It's a question of "people who are so far out on the fringe, and so stridently, hysterically vocal compared to the rest of us, that they undermine the movement and alienate a large number of potential supporters."

It's a question of ditching the Fezzes of reality

	24-06-2004 22:55									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger But the more fundamental question is "Why do we need GM food?"

Because it makes growing food cheaper?

	24-06-2004 22:56									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos And about this whole raising the issue "even if people don't want to hear it," I am all about letting you say yout peice, but when it is obvious to all they everyone has heard, thought about, and rejected you stupid ideas give it a rest.

That argument doesn't work on these boards. Why do you think we have so many commies?