08-07-2004 00:12									#181
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by HongHu In my opinion, it is the player's responsibility to play honestly, and it is the CMN's responsibility to put a check on any and all unwanted behavior. It is only fair to all the players and the offender.

I disagree. There are so many opportunities to cheat. Trust must be established. A CMN has enough of a job just setting up the game. This isn't Romper Room where the 'parent' is responsible if a child hurts themselves on a trampoline. A CMN should be called in if the players can't resolve a problem. Anyone who needs monitoring isn't fit to play.

-S

	08-07-2004 00:21									#182
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I can feel the fuility of arguing as there seems to be almost an overwhelming majority against Enigma. However, I guess I'll try even though I was the architect of what happened.

I had no doubts that when I announced that Enigma was cheating he would get ejected from this community. That's why I kept avoiding the issue, as I felt for some reason he didn't quite deserve that punishment.

Enigma really loves this place, he changed his sleeping patterns just so he can be around when most of the other players are too. He's also more obessive than me about checking these forums and that's saying something. He also loves the game SMAC spending hours looking into the game. If it wasn't for his faults I have no doubt he would be one of the key people around here.

People are worried about Enigma cheating, the difference is now that he will be that he really is on his last chance and I'm sure he's acutely aware of it. My observation is that Enigma follows logic to fault. I think previously he believed himself immune to being confronted and he had never been confronted. So logically he had no reason not to cheat. Now it's a harsh reality that everyone is going to be looking over his shoulder and he can't afford even a minor discretion as any goodwill would fade like the dew at midday.

Sometimes losing everything then being given it back can really change people. Perhaps not.... The question is are people willing to wait and see, because Enigma has the potential to give alot to this community. I know people think that it may be a waste of their time, but sometimes you need to take a chance or two. This doesn't mean you have to trust him, you only to allow him to stay and show whether he's changed as he actually claims he has.

	08-07-2004 00:33									#183
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quote: Originally posted by smacksim I'd like to see Enigma make a post about fighting a habit like cheating.

This is fair. I would like to see if Enigma can take up this challenge. If he can make such a post, then I will challenge you all to give him a fair chance.

	08-07-2004 00:38									#184
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Kody, is this true? From HoF replacement thread

quote: Originally posted by Maniac People, please keep in mind that most likely Enigma_Nova's "Okay from now I'll play fair" attitude is simply another of his tricks which he used before by the way. I hope you won't all be fooled once again... Though I expect you will.

• Enigma did not come forward himself, even when given the chance
  
• Enigma did not change behavior when given the chance
  
• Enigma has done this before?
  
• Enigma doesn't believe much in trust (from his post above)
  
• Pbems are built on trust
  
• Enigma has wasted 100s of hours of peopless time in games that must be fixed, discussed, or restarted
  

	08-07-2004 00:39									#185
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I'm more comfortable in letting them have their doubts, Kody.
As a Logical type of person, I know there are hundreds of games and thousands of forums.
In effect, being removed from this 1 game and this 1 forum isn't much of a hurdle.

The opinions of others do not affect me, and I am experienced in leaving old circumstance behind.

The main problem will be that Kody has another guilt trip because
he used Codicil to spy on others' games,
he lied about vets' playing habits (past cheaters indeed)
he broke promises by his own admission

I'm starting to think he enjoys guilt as much as I enjoy conflict.
Meh. Each has their own agenda, and until that crosses mine I'm okay.

	08-07-2004 00:46									#186
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Fighting a habit like cheating?
Already over it.
Concerned about PBEM playing?
Already over it.
Fazed by a ban from Apolyton?
Already over it.

I am impervious to all damage.
There's no real way to punish a self-denying pessimistic nihilist.
Unless you get in the way of my goals, but you can't do that.
There's always another alias by which to spread my influence.

As a matter of fact, I've already managed to locate HongHu and Kody.
I'm pretty unconcerned about the rest of Apolyton.
Having located those two, my mission here was a success!

So... hit me with your best shot.
I would drop the exploits and play some PBEMs,
but I figure you're all already over it.

	08-07-2004 00:49									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Enigma_Nova I'm more comfortable in letting them have their doubts, Kody. {...} Meh. Each has their own agenda, and until that crosses mine I'm okay.

That is not acceptable.

No matter how razzed you feel by being the center of this, and continuing to be with statements like that, I care not.

That statement demonstrates:

• Unwillingness to work with others for a solution
  
• Your intention to keep everyone focused on yourself
  
• That you are only interested in your own comfort
  
• That you only care about your own agenda even if it crosses that of others
  

	08-07-2004 01:05									#188
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More on the matter, which I was going to post in HH's dramatic 'I'm quitting' thread.

E_N, even when you are denying it, I can see that it's not pleasant for you to be in this situation. You don't have to say 'I don't care, I'll just find a new community to go to' when you are feeling hurt by your own actions. Stay and be a man about it. Earn the respect of others rather than pretend you don't care. I can see you do. Anyone can. Leaving is a cycle that never ends. If you do leave because of a bitter pill like a ban, you should know that I will be forever pissed for writing the above.

	08-07-2004 01:06									#189
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Enigma, I am not going to give up on you. I trusted you to be able to do what you said you can do. I still trust you. It's fine if you hate me for bringing you into this. I can understand what and how much you have gone through.

	08-07-2004 01:08									#190
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So where do I go to request that administrative action be taken? I am planning on following through on making an official complaint unless something comes to light.

-S

	08-07-2004 01:19									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Enigma_Nova You won't be swayed either way now that you have an opinion. Nice playing with you, smacksim. What I mean by 'screw the past games': **** happens, get over it. And so I do.

I think you can see, this is not the case E_N. I'm not holing up in an opinion, unable to change. It's important, especially when discussing justice, not to make statements that can't be changed in the future. I didn't 'get' this post of yours at first. Now I see your meaning. Don't worry about that E_N. I'm certified in Conflict Mediation and Consensus Building. It's not likely I'll lock my opinions down.

-S

	08-07-2004 01:29									#192
	Tired of ads?

If the community doesn't suit the individual there is incompatibility at both ends; sure as ****, if you're not bending, then I'm not either.

quote: I can see that it's not pleasant for you to be in this situation. You don't have to say 'I don't care, I'll just find a new community to go to' when you are feeling hurt by your own actions.

You're picking up your own scent, barking up the wrong tree.

quote: Earn the respect of others rather than pretend you don't care

Sincerity isn't something you can detect, because you've never felt yourself close enough to know what you are.
I'm not in a position to care.

Cheating isn't against Apolyton forum rules; you can't do crap.

	08-07-2004 01:43									#193
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No, I can't really do crap. But:

quote: XVI) So, to be sure, what will most probably mean the disablement of my login? (added with v.1.5, 7/August/99) Double Log Ons... Massive spamming in a thread Multiple identical comments posted in many different threads. Hate Threads... Or seriously hateful posts Massive Flaming Behaviour which is considered distruptive to this site. No explicit sexual discussion allowed Doing anything after an Admin or Mod tells you not to do it. Usually, common sense is the rule of how we want things to work here

I think this fits 'Behaviour which is considered distruptive [sic] to this site.'

Perhaps I'm wrong. I just need to find an admin and ask.

-S

	08-07-2004 02:45									#194
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wow-- quite a fuss

To me the remedy is simple-- those that no longer wish to play enigma . .. don't .. . It took me two turns of one game to come to that realization and thats all the attention the issue warranted.

	08-07-2004 02:56									#195
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True, quite a fuss.

Not really true: Remedy Simple

My suggestions:

Definate Do's:

Players should be forewarned. Two turns is two too many. If this warning should expire, the time should be set by the community.


Probable Do's:

Cheater should be banned for awhile. This isn't a single case. This is 100's of hours of wasted time.

Cheater should make every effort to clean up the games, problems, etc. they caused before ban takes effect (E_N's doing this now, which is )

Cheater should convince a Moderator that they will behave in the future. Moderator will be in turn convinced by the community response, methinks. This should be public.

Clear rules for handling this should be made topped. This was a bit of a mess.

	08-07-2004 03:22									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber To me the remedy is simple-- those that no longer wish to play enigma . .. don't .. . It took me two turns of one game to come to that realization and thats all the attention the issue warranted.

I agree with this approach wholeheartedly. There are enough players at every skill level that if you personally don't feel comfortable playing against a certain player, that you don't have to. Previous to this situation there were already several players on the boards which I steered clear of, simply because I don't want or need to interact with them, and I am sure that my "wheels within wheels" approach to my PBEM's has put me on some other people's ignore list as well. There are still enough PBEM's to go around for all.....


D

	08-07-2004 03:23									#197
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Well smackism . .. my remedy is simple

My personal belief is that enigma likes attention .. . I don't care to give him any

	08-07-2004 03:31									#198
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Yes, your remedy solves your problem. But it neither helps anyone else, nor prevents others from having to waste their time.

As to the attention: Agree. I have some hours to waste on lavishing attention. Also, I enjoy looking for the best solution, rather than the most convenient.

Edit: Weirdly I chopped up two posts at the same time. Go Apolyton!

Last edited by smacksim on 08-07-2004 at 10:52

	08-07-2004 09:47									#199
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(Smack has had a few Gaian Tonics whilst waiting for the turn in ACDG. Please understand)

Bah! You are either lazy or believe that Apolyton is a bunch of meaningless strangers. That is truly lame. If you would take a moment and reflect upon the best community you ever belonged to: your family, your sports team, your job, etc.. you'll certainly know that communities come to points at which they must FACE problems and not just selfishly move past them as individuals. PBEMs take trust. E_N has ****** that for us.

I'm stll planning on waiting a day or so before requesting a ban. In the case of some new evidence. Come forward and deal you cowards.

Is anyone here familiar with Outward Bound's philosophy on group formation? No, I don't subscribe to Outward Bound. In fact, I think they are a bit nuts. But I like this part of their philosophy b/c it ties in with Dewey.

to paraphrase: "Groups go through stages. Forming, Norming, Storming, and Performing". At each stage the individual reveals more of their true nature and deals with issues of responsibility and leadership. Groups that are unwilling to go through the Storming phase are unable to achieve the true performance of groups that have done so successfully.'

Success just takes facing the issues instead of ignoring them. Apolyton is enough of a community that I expect more from you. You have made time committments to things. you are invested in the forums and games. Now live up to it.

-S

	08-07-2004 10:54									#200
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at smackism

I've been here for almost 4 years so I can do without the lecture

Word of this will spread and people will make their own decisions and IMHO thats as it should be

	08-07-2004 11:08									#201
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I may be tonic'd, but I'm not a Believer. How about replying to my post instead of restating your 'I'll just help myself and everything will be fine' position? Where does that get us? I've been here almost 4 years as well, though not in this guise. What does seniority have to do with it except give you another excuse for not making a contribution to the future of the community?

Bah. I don't really expect anything more from Apolyton. I think you are missing out on improving things though. And you are doing so out of convenience rather than thought of your fellow or future SMACer. That's timid.

And another thing. I agree with your prediction that most will learn and it'll be common knowledge, etc.. I'm sure you will not experience any further unneccessary reading in your time here.

-Smack

Edit: Flubber, I'm not sure you are aware, but E_N is accused of cheating in nearly half of the active PBEMs currently running, AND the ACDG. Does this change the picture for you? No, I'm not on a mission to have him banned. Yes, I'm on a mission to have this dealt with without a mere dramafest (see HH's leaving post, all the PBEMs, and the ACDG), and certainly without an outright dismissal as you propose. That's irresponsible

Since you didn't reply to my post I'll give another example: Imagine a fisherman who runs aground on a reef. Ah, now he knows about the reef. He'll avoid it. The next day he meets a new fisherman and says 'Happy fishing'. No No No. He builds a lighthouse. That's all I'm saying. If you want to argue that lighthouses are ridiculous, go right ahead. -S

Last edited by smacksim on 08-07-2004 at 11:33

	08-07-2004 11:42									#202
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by smacksim Flubber, I'm not sure you are aware, but E_N is accused of cheating in nearly half of the active PBEMs currently running, AND the ACDG. Does this change the picture for you? No, I'm not on a mission to have him banned. Yes, I'm on a mission to have this dealt with without a mere dramafest (see HH's leaving post, all the PBEMs, and the ACDG), and certainly without an outright dismissal as you propose. That's irresponsible Since you didn't reply to my post I'll give another example: Imagine a fisherman who runs aground on a reef. Ah, now he knows about the reef. He'll avoid it. The next day he meets a new fisherman and says 'Happy fishing'. No No No. He builds a lighthouse. That's all I'm saying. If you want to argue that lighthouses are rediculous, go right ahead. -S

Your analogy makes my point-- you build a lighthouse (you warn people of the danger and then they sail wherever their individual boats take them), you don't dig up the reef

The one thing I have learned about this community is that there is a great variance of opinions. If some want to continue in their games with him, that is their choice. It would not be my choice.

My view does not come from apathy, it comes from the knowledge that there is no central authority that determines who can play whom. Personally I would never accept any such authority.

I do appreciate the community of players here but Enigma has done no irreversible damage. Replacements can be found in his PBEMS and life will go on as before.

	08-07-2004 11:49									#203
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by smacksim (Success just takes facing the issues instead of ignoring them. Apolyton is enough of a community that I expect more from you. You have made time committments to things. you are invested in the forums and games. Now live up to it. -S

I meet my commitments but frankly this forum and game rank pretty low in my priorities. I am here because I enjoy playing and talking about the game.

I have nothing at all invested in Enigma's status and no unmet commitments so what the heck are you talking about??

	08-07-2004 11:50									#204
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

O.K. Thanks. I can relate to that. I know I've gone off the deep end on this. I do see how it's like asking to dig up the reef. However, I do see that warning new players is a good idea, even in that framework. Since coming back I wasted 2 or three turns in 2 games with E_N. I would have appreciated his name in lights. This isn't a truckstop. Secondly, he's MUCH farther into some games, including the ACDG than just 2 turns. Why should we tolerate that?

-S

	08-07-2004 11:58									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber I meet my commitments but frankly this forum and game rank pretty low in my priorities. I am here because I enjoy playing and talking about the game.

Ok. Ok. You are right. It's not that important to most people. How would you feel 50 years into a Pbem if you found out you were playing a cheater and could have been warned?

quote: Originally posted by Flubber I have nothing at all invested in Enigma's status and no unmet commitments so what the heck are you talking about?? .

I didn't mean commitments in that sense. Rather, committed to seeing the forums work smoothly for your enjoyment and that of others. Comitted in that sense of 'I get a lot out of this place. Let me make sure I give back.' In this case I'm saying that means trying to help insure that people waste minimal time on cheaters in the future.

Anyways, I'm exhausted, and yes, a bit tipsy. Again, I apologize for lashing out, and am glad you found humor in it. I just went a little nuts today.

-Smack