27-06-2004 05:34									#61
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Well, PTW was indeed not a good XP, IMO, but Conquests definitely is. Sure, Civ3 MP has some problems, but it's not an MP game, after all. PBEM is still an excellent way to play.

	27-06-2004 08:31									#62
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you can play ctp2 multiplayer?

probably impossible to find people to play though.

	27-06-2004 17:54									#63
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Quite on the contrary. When one of CtP2 players wants to play, a post goes into the forum here, and he can easily have a game with several other Apolytoners.

Which is better than Civ3 MP, IMO. I don't mind playing games against strangers in RTS, for instance, but in Civ games, I want to play against people I know. The reason is mainly the skill difference, I guess. I've played Civ3 MP, and I have been into the unpleasant situation of playing against a few guys that are clearly casual players. As they said later, Civ3 was their first Civ game, and they got it recently somewhat, and never played too much. The game wasn't much fun for me, or for them. Or I can get into a game with a Demigod-level player, who won't be having much fun with me either.

	28-06-2004 11:43									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Solver How can you prefer spending 10 minutes each turn moving 100 workers around, or living with them automated, spending 2 minutes just watching them, and not doing the best job at terraforming?

I really see no difference with terraforming.
Having to manage your terraforming for minutes per turn. Just to see that just after you have terraformed all your land you can terraform it to something better soon after that.

It's an awfull lot of micromanagement. And it can't be automated. CtP really sucks if not only for the terraform system.

	28-06-2004 11:44									#65
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quote: Originally posted by deity LOL!! good one I played Civ3 about 3 times on SP. Now deleted from my PC... it sux; god aweful game. Civ 1 and 2 are legendary games! I suggest the Civ3'ers who haven't played Civ2, do so.

How can you judge any civ-game after you played it only 3 times

	28-06-2004 11:48									#66
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quote: I really see no difference with terraforming. Having to manage your terraforming for minutes per turn. Just to see that just after you have terraformed all your land you can terraform it to something better soon after that. It's an awfull lot of micromanagement. And it can't be automated. CtP really sucks if not only for the terraform system.

Automation of terrain improvement has always sucked. In CtP, I still spend maybe 20 seconds a turn for my PW, as I know where I want it improved anyway. In Civ3, I can't help but feel extreely bored when my 70 automated workers jump across the map... and again... and again... honestly.

	28-06-2004 12:19									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Well, PTW was indeed not a good XP, IMO, but Conquests definitely is. Sure, Civ3 MP has some problems, but it's not an MP game, after all. PBEM is still an excellent way to play.

Conquests may have some neat features, but the game is bug ridden and broken, which more than makes up for the features it has. The AI plays stupid (although it still beats the AI of the best CtP2 mods with ease), its terrain improvements suck, barbarians are a pushover, since they attack only in one direction while being vulnerable in all others, AI units stumbling into stealth units causes war, strategic resources are way too scarce and what's the worst of all, the game has about as much support as CtP2, meaning practically none. For single playing the game is way worse than PtW. The only sector where it's better is multiplaying without AI.

Civ3 Conquests could have been the best Civ game ever, but unfortunately, it came out the worst. I forgave Firaxis the initial bugs of plain Civ3 and the multiplayer fiasko of PtW, even more since I'm a PBEM player and not much into online MP anyway. But I will never forgive them, that they blew Conquests

	28-06-2004 12:22									#68
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By the way, nice PW vs workers discussion. Public works sucks, it's the main reason why I trash CtP games again and again. Other than that, they are alright.

	28-06-2004 12:56									#69
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quote: . The AI plays stupid (although it still beats the AI of the best CtP2 mods with ease)

Ever tried Cradle on the highest difficulty? I have a lot of respect for the Civ3 AI, but it certainly doesn't beat Cradle AI 'with ease'. It might be better overall in the sense it will take you out in a more focused manner, but few people can beat Cradle AI.

quote: By the way, nice PW vs workers discussion. Public works sucks, it's the main reason why I trash CtP games again and again. Other than that, they are alright.

And yet you just say that PW suck, and fail to bring any reasonable arguments .

	28-06-2004 13:06									#70
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You can't back the attribute "sucks" with reasonable arguments. It generally stands for "I don't like it", "it annoys me" or "I find it boring" and is a matter of personal preference. You like PW, fine, more power to you. If others don't like it, you should respect their opinion too, and take your crusade to a place, where the sun doesn't shine.

	28-06-2004 13:08									#71
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As for Cradle, no I didn't try it Impossible. I tried it King, and it sucked. I trashed it, after I saw, that I can chase a stack of three healthy barbarians with one deadly wounded slinger over the whole continent. I never tried it again, and won't. I have enough with one blown game (Conquests) and don't need yet more.

	28-06-2004 13:29									#72
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Conquests is accepted as the best civ3 version by about all civ3 players. I think C3C is a very good game and I don't understand your problems with it.

And ready with your PW within 20 seconds?
I don't know how small your empire usually is.....
I was always busy clicking all over the map on CtP placing PW all the time.
And with civ3 conquests you can turn off automatic moves so you don't see the workers move.

It works perfectly.

	28-06-2004 13:44									#73
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I don't like a game just because it's widely accepted by "about all others". I like a game if I consider the time I invest in it well spent. This is not the case with Conquests. If you, or "all others" for that matter, are satisfied with the Conquests AI as it is, fine with me. I am not, by far.

	28-06-2004 13:58									#74
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Of course "Widely acceptance" is not a reason to love something yourself.
But I said that because I wonder how it's possible that you concider Conquests to be that broken while everybody sees it as the ultimate civ3 version...

	28-06-2004 14:30									#75
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I already mentioned some of the multiple reasons. And that are by far not all. I didn't even mention the army misery, which is another biggie. And the worst of all is, that the support for the game has practically stopped in favor of milking yet more money out of the game. They won't fool me another time.

	28-06-2004 14:44									#76
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Although I liked the idea of PW when CtP came out, I soon grew to dislike it. I couldn't make any terrain improvements until I had quite a number of cities, or I risked slowing my production down a lot. I much prefer having a settler or worker pop out early to improve happily whilst my production stays where it needs to be.

Settlers and workers have the inherent alternate utility if you don't want them any more of being able to build/join cities. PW HAS to divert from your economy, and doesn;t emerge until quite some way into the game.

And what's that about Civ3 MP being dead? The MP forum may be, but just a glance at the PBEM forum shows you how many hundreds of turns are played a day through Poly alone. That ain't dead - that's the most active MP forum Poly has.

	28-06-2004 21:31									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph As for Cradle, no I didn't try it Impossible. I tried it King,

Cradle doesn't have a King level...(try Very Hard)

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph and it sucked. I trashed it, after I saw, that I can chase a stack of three healthy barbarians with one deadly wounded slinger over the whole continent. I never tried it again, and won't. I have enough with one blown game (Conquests) and don't need yet more.

I have no problem with differences in preferences concerning game mechanics. I may not totally understand it, but I can accept it. When Ralph makes the comment about his preference for a worker system over PW, that is fine.

But...Thats a real objective analysis of a game Ralph...
And that is why I will always discount any opinions that you have about CTP (and my Mod in particular), because it is based on playing for a short time, and a small aspect of the whole game to boot (so you were able to chase a barb stack one time - and you judge the game on that...sheesh - I've had more than enough barbs chasing me in my Cradle games.)

The bottom line is that both games have flaws in the AI. (Of course, it helps that the AI in civ3 has substantially more bonuses and outright cheats than the AI in CTP2, even in its Modded state)

Keep posting your commentaries Ralph. Every time you type something, you keep building up my case...

	28-06-2004 22:08									#78
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quote: The bottom line is that both games have flaws in the AI. (Of course, it helps that the AI in civ3 has substantially more bonuses and outright cheats than the AI in CTP2, even in its Modded state)

Good point. Though I will continue to say that the obvious visibility of the main CtP2 cheat annoys me, but yes, it plays on a fair ground otherwise. The cheat I'm speaking about is lots of free PW and city growth. It's only annoying early in the game - when I'm exploring, and just got two cities, I see an AI with 3 size 6-7 cities, all terrain around them improved. Sure enough, though, that's necessary for it - and at least it never knows where your units are or stuff.

	29-06-2004 04:42									#79
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strangely, I feel like playing CTP2 now. I may eventually give it another shot.

	29-06-2004 07:08									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Good point. Though I will continue to say that the obvious visibility of the main CtP2 cheat annoys me, but yes, it plays on a fair ground otherwise. The cheat I'm speaking about is lots of free PW and city growth. It's only annoying early in the game - when I'm exploring, and just got two cities, I see an AI with 3 size 6-7 cities, all terrain around them improved. Sure enough, though, that's necessary for it - and at least it never knows where your units are or stuff.

Later versions of Cradle (1.30b in particular) reduced the PW bonus and raised the priority to expand via city constuction. The bonus is a lot less than it was in 1.35. (see AI cheat comparison thread that I linked in this thread)

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Although I liked the idea of PW when CtP came out, I soon grew to dislike it. I couldn't make any terrain improvements until I had quite a number of cities, or I risked slowing my production down a lot. I much prefer having a settler or worker pop out early to improve happily whilst my production stays where it needs to be.

A 'guns or butter' decision, and it is the basis of any good TBS game. The premise is that you cannot do everything you want, so you choose to focus on what you consider to be most important. Games that allow you to do everything are not very challenging...

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt PW HAS to divert from your economy, and doesn;t emerge until quite some way into the game..

Long term planning is the focus. You want to grow your economy? You have to sacrifice...

	29-06-2004 10:25									#81
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quote: How can anyone go back to civ2 after this game

Happily.

quote: civ 3 quickly became a drink coaster as civ 2 returned to its rightful place on my pc

quote: I play SMAC and civ2, because civ3 is complete and utter poop.

	29-06-2004 10:34									#82
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quote: Originally posted by hexagonian Cradle doesn't have a King level...(try Very Hard)

I couldn't be arsed to fire it up again to look for the exact name. It was slightly above the medium. That is, where the King levels in true Civ games are.

quote: I have no problem with differences in preferences concerning game mechanics. I may not totally understand it, but I can accept it. When Ralph makes the comment about his preference for a worker system over PW, that is fine.

That's all I ask for, and more than Solver grants. He can not accept other opinions. I wrote multiple times, that I'm fine with his preference for PW, as long as he grants me the right to have my own preference.

quote: But...Thats a real objective analysis of a game Ralph...

Roll your eyes all you want, but I don't have the time to post a whole game analysis everytime somebody asks "Have you tried Cradle"? I wrote a detailed analysis about my game in the time, when I played it. The worst case was, that it froze for minutes several times, that I even thought my computer crashed. There were other annoyances, too. I just described the moment in my game, when the unfun overweighted the fun about twice, and I stopped to play it. You know, there are people out there, who play for fun and entertainment.

Why can't you accept that I simply didn't like it? I will avoid the term "sucks" in the future, if this makes you happy. I will write "I didn't like it", what is basically the same, and be done with it.

quote: And that is why I will always discount any opinions that you have about CTP (and my Mod in particular), because it is based on playing for a short time, and a small aspect of the whole game to boot (so you were able to chase a barb stack one time - and you judge the game on that...sheesh - I've had more than enough barbs chasing me in my Cradle games.)

I am not interested in your opinion, either.

quote: The bottom line is that both games have flaws in the AI. (Of course, it helps that the AI in civ3 has substantially more bonuses and outright cheats than the AI in CTP2, even in its Modded state) Keep posting your commentaries Ralph. Every time you type something, you keep building up my case...

My name is not Ralph. And I will continue to express my opinion whenever it pleases me.

	29-06-2004 10:44									#83
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quote: My name is not Ralph. And I will continue to express my opinion whenever it pleases me.

Maybe something makes people believe your name actually is ralph

	29-06-2004 12:35									#84
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Maybe something makes people believe your name actually is ralph

Can't think what this would be. All I can do is to assure you, that my screen name has nothing to do with my name in reality. I use different screen names for different game forums, too.

	29-06-2004 12:42									#85
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If you don't want us to call you ralph, don't chose your screen name to be (sir) ralph.

You can be whatever name you want to be in whatever forum you want to, but don't blame people for using that name

But thanks for showing me a little bit insight in who you are, that makes it easier to put your c3c comments into the right perspective

	29-06-2004 12:49									#86
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Whatever, fanboy.

	29-06-2004 13:09									#87
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Being a fanboy makes your life hapier!
Living a morning life is always inferior to living a content life

I'd rather be happy with something imperfect then unhappy with something perfect.

We fanboys rule.

	29-06-2004 13:18									#88
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I know. I have been one myself. And frankly I will cheer Conquests again, once it is ready (if it will ever be). It is a game with a huge potential, but unfortunately as heavily bug ridden as the original game was. But the original game had support of the whole company, while Conquests is maintained by a single lost soul, who seems to be hopelessly swamped with that huge effort. Kudos to him, though. I lost my hope, that Conquests will ever shine in the way it deserves. As it is, I prefer PtW or CtP2 with SAP2 over it big time, even though both have their issues, too.

	29-06-2004 13:32									#89
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Did you ever install the 1.22 patch

	29-06-2004 13:39									#90
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Yes, the day it came out. So what? Does the AI build armies now? Does it place terrain improvements as well as in PtW? Did it cease to build its cities way too far apart, so that there are holes between the cities and the corruption goes unnecessary high? Are the barbarians again the nuisance they were in PtW or are they still pushovers? Have you still not to build submarines or other stealth units to avoid a gracious ally to declare war as he stumbled into it? Are strategical resources back to the PtW ratio?