29-06-2004 14:09									#91
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Don't mock any game for a few bugs.
It doesn't kill the gameplay, at least it doesn't for me.

You shouldn't concentrate that much on details

	29-06-2004 14:11									#92
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If you're content with mediocrity, more power to you.

	29-06-2004 21:44									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I wrote a detailed analysis about my game in the time, when I played it. The worst case was, that it froze for minutes several times, that I even thought my computer crashed. There were other annoyances, too. I just described the moment in my game, when the unfun overweighted the fun about twice, and I stopped to play it. You know, there are people out there, who play for fun and entertainment.

Your problems with the Mod were taken into consideration.
As I recall, these were the issues you brought up when you played my Mod

1. Game Freeze issue
This was not a freeze, but a slowdown due to the Militia Code requiring processing time when you or the AI get an Advance or a unit out of a goody hut. Unfortunately, this slowdown is only reduced if you have a more powerful computer. This is spelled out in the Readme, as well as addressed in the FAQ section of CTP2. As an aside, long wait times for processing turns is standard fare for civ3.

The slowdown goes away as goody huts are cleared out.

2. Pollution Message issue
Certain adjustments to userprofile.txt brought up a pollution message that occured every 10 turns. The message warned of end-of-the world global flooding. When you brought up this issue, Locutus was able to track it down and eliminate it, and it no longer occurs in later versions of Cradle.

2. Cost of Advances and Settlers
You brought up the issue that it took a long time to research and to build settlers. I maintained that settler cost was part of my overall design, and would not change, but that a simple edit to a file would allow a player to adjust the cost of a Settler. (I have always maintained that players are free to alter my setup for their own preferences.) You did not want to waste your time to make such an edit - maintaining that you did not want to play a game that you had to edit yourself, since that is what you do at work as a programmer.

Advance costs were taken into consideration and dropped by 1/3 for Cradle 1.30b.

I really do not care if you feel my Mod sucks or not. But when you state that it sucks and is a piece of crap on a public forum, you better believe that I will do what I can to defend the work I did. Unlike a company, I have no need for public relations to hostile players.

I am honest with my Mod's shortcomings too. I have posted those limitations in various threads on the CTP2 forums. I have also made suggestions in gameplay to limit those shortcomings - to give a richer CTP2 gaming experience.

And if anyone wants a fair analysis of civ3/CTP2, I do refer you to Solver's analysis. He is honest with how BOTH games play out.

	30-06-2004 02:25									#94
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Point taken. If somebody asks me next time, if I tried Cradle, I will tell that I loved it to death, if that pleases you more. I am aware that honesty is not everywhere appreciated, some people prefer flattery. You will get what you want, don't worry.

I wouldn't have called your mod crap, though. If I did, I apologize. I am aware, that you worked hard for it. I tried it, but alas, it didn't work out for me. I didn't like it, to avoid the term "sucked", which obviously offends you over the top. I prefer the SAP2 bigtime, when playing CtP2.

What brings me to another subject. You keep to write, that you discard my opinion about CtP, because I played it only over a short period. For your interest, I intensively played CivCtP for two years and CtP2 for one year before Civ3 came out. I'm pretty sure, that I played significantly more CtP1/2 games than you played Civ3 games. If you call my CtP experience shabby, I really don't know how I should call yours about Civ3. The only thing you can blame me for, is not having played newer versions of Cradle. But chances for this are very low. At the moment, I don't even play Civ3, because I have serious issues with a broken expansion pack.

	30-06-2004 02:55									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Yes, the day it came out. So what? Does the AI build armies now? Does it place terrain improvements as well as in PtW? Did it cease to build its cities way too far apart, so that there are holes between the cities and the corruption goes unnecessary high? Are the barbarians again the nuisance they were in PtW or are they still pushovers? Have you still not to build submarines or other stealth units to avoid a gracious ally to declare war as he stumbled into it? Are strategical resources back to the PtW ratio?

barbarians seem worse in my opinion. but I'm comparing to the original civ3. I get ransacked by stacks of like 10 or 15 horsemen. Brutal.

I'm curious that you say PTW was so much better. How can you tell the ai isn't doing terrain improvements as well. As far as I can tell they do what they always do. Put a road and mine on everything.

	30-06-2004 03:01									#96
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In later patches of PtW Soren Johnson improved the AI handling of terrain improvements, following alexmans "Why oh why" thread, which was constructive criticism of some weird AI behavior. Before this change, the AI improved grassland in a checkerboard-like manner with irrigation and mining. This meant a lot of irrigated tiles under despotism, where there's no benefit from it. After the change, the AI was much more selective, concentrating on improvement of tiles with bonus resources and bonus grassland first, just like the human would do.

	30-06-2004 03:03									#97
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What concerns barbarians in Conquests: They keep to sit in their camps and attack only in one direction . All other directions are safe. It's a bug, and a nasty one. Practically, barbarians are utterly broken.

	30-06-2004 03:26									#98
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The only time barbs are a serious concern is at Sid and maybe Deity (only played a few deity games). Even there it is known that you can stay (down wind) on a plane that will avoid attack.

I posted a thread long ago about the bug. I have seen stacks of 12 or horsemen stay put while a long attacker kills them one at a time. I have done this many times with AC in Sid games. Just stay out of the track the they seem to like.

I have seen a wounded horsemen that I forced to retreat stand right next to 4 or more horse barbs and not be attacked.

It is endless and sad. This is the only real bug I care about in C3C, the sub thing is not something I run into much.

When PTW came out it seemed they have improved barbs, by making them stop attacking forted spears in cities and moving around and pillaging and such. Now in C3C, you do not see much of that behavior.

	30-06-2004 03:39									#99
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never seenthat bug.. whenever the hordes come out they always attack my citys and usually pick out and stragglers too, of course they do target Workers in the open too.

	30-06-2004 03:53									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph What concerns barbarians in Conquests: They keep to sit in their camps and attack only in one direction . All other directions are safe. It's a bug, and a nasty one. Practically, barbarians are utterly broken.

I must have been in that direction. I was getting slammed.

Although I was playing a predesigned earth map. That may have been the reason. I was in North american.

Those damn canadian barbarians were relentless. It took me a while to settle those worthless frigid lands to get rid of them.

	30-06-2004 04:52									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Rasputin never seenthat bug.. whenever the hordes come out they always attack my citys and usually pick out and stragglers too, of course they do target Workers in the open too.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=114444

	30-06-2004 04:57									#102
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Call to Power 2 Rules!!!

	30-06-2004 04:59									#103
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I know I posted screen shots in my thread, but I did not find it in a quick search. I rarely see a game with out the barbs sitting on their hands.

You can put two horsemen on two different hills and see a large stack of barb horsemen will not touch them if they are in the wrong plane. If they are on the correct line they may attack, it is a toss up.

Remove one of the units on the hill that is on the correct line and they will attack.

In the case I first decided to report on this behavior, the barbs where on the adjacent tile to a new city with one defender and styed put, until I got an attacker over there to kill them one each turn. They never came out of being fortified. This is very common.

Back in the PTW, I use to use sentries to prevent new camps near town, now I don't bother. They are not going to attack if you have any decent defender. They will come for a lone warrior, but not much more than that.

	30-06-2004 05:01									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Flinx Call to Power 2 Rules!!!

I think you mean drools.

	30-06-2004 06:53									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I wouldn't have called your mod crap,

No you said Cradle sucked... In your words, CTP2 is crap.

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph If I did, I apologize.

Accepted - perhaps something can be salvaged out of this...

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Point taken. If somebody asks me next time, if I tried Cradle, I will tell that I loved it to death, if that pleases you more. I am aware that honesty is not everywhere appreciated, some people prefer flattery. You will get what you want, don't worry.

I never asked for flattery, nor do I want it from you, because I would never believe it.

People make suggestions about my Mod all the time, and they don't resort to using words like 'crap' and 'suck'.

Face it, do you expect me to respond more positively to the statement, 'Perhaps you should consider reducing the cost of a settler' or to the statement 'Your mod is a piece of crap because you have settlers costing too much...'

Or if you had a face to face with Soren and the rest of the Firaxis crew, would you say that the current Conquests is a piece of crap. Would you then expect him to listen to you or say 'What an idiot...'

Hey, I'm not a gaming company, just someone who likes to tinker with games trying to get the best results.

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I prefer the SAP2 bigtime, when playing CtP2.

Interesting because the main creator of SAP2 (Dale) and I cross-used most of the AI routines, and SLICs for both Mods. We developed the Mods at about the same time and were combining our efforts. So you are actually playing a Mod that is very similar in tone to Cradle. (Cradle tends to be a little more aggressive militarily)

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph What brings me to another subject. You keep to write, that you discard my opinion about CtP, because I played it only over a short period. For your interest, I intensively played CivCtP for two years and CtP2 for one year before Civ3 came out. I'm pretty sure, that I played significantly more CtP1/2 games than you played Civ3 games. If you call my CtP experience shabby, I really don't know how I should call yours about Civ3.

I have played about 10 games of civ3, but I am also a slow player. (I have played about 5-6 full-blown CTP2 Cradle games as well as many short-game playtests) I was an avid CTP1 PBEM player a few years ago too.

I have posted onsite here that I think civ3 is a good game that does not hold my interest because single unit combat and the inability to lockstack workers makes playing civ3 a major chore once you hit the Industrial age. I have better things to do than sit there for 20 minutes a turn to shuffle individual workers and resolve a series of individual combats, especially since these things can be fixed with simple adjustments to game mechanics that will yield the exact same results - and has been effectively done in Modded CTP.

Plus civ3 Stacks of Doom (capture, raze, move on, backfill) and infinite RR kills strategy in a way that makes me cringe.

Fix those things and I would be playing civ3 now.

	30-06-2004 12:45									#106
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quote: Originally posted by hexagonian No you said Cradle sucked... In your words, CTP2 is crap.

Yes, note the difference. I wouldn't call the hard work of a modder crap only because I don't like his work. And the term "sucks" does stand for "don't like it" or "annoys me". This is my honest response, when asked if I tried Cradle, which happens regularly. I really don't see how it could offend you unless you are heavily intolerant. If you take offense from the word "sucks", I will express it the next time with other words, but the quintessence remains.

I will, however, continue to call CtP2 utter crap everytime the CtP2 zealots chase this forum to troll and run down my game representants of the wonderful CtP2 community honor us with their presence and enrich us with their insights.

	30-06-2004 19:40									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph And the term "sucks" does stand for "don't like it" or "annoys me". This is my honest response, when asked if I tried Cradle, which happens regularly. I really don't see how it could offend you unless you are heavily intolerant. If you take offense from the word "sucks", I will express it the next time with other words, but the quintessence remains.

I can safely say that if you used the word 'sucks' to describe anyone's work, 95% of those people would be offended and/or irritated and would take it more strongly than a simple 'don't like it' or even 'annoys me'

Or to put it in another light - Your boss comes up to you and says that your programming sucks and is a piece of crap. A little more personal than 'I don't like how your programming works'...

	30-06-2004 19:44									#108
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Although I really don't know why I'm continuing this discussion: You still put "sucks" and "crap" in the same sentence. Ah well, hopeless. But if you really want an answer: "Sucks" wouldn't offend me. "Crap", however, would.

	30-06-2004 19:47									#109
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Mainly because you don't want me to have the last word on the subject....

	30-06-2004 19:53									#110
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Perhaps mainly because discussing with somebody who deliberately misunderstands and misquotes me, bores and disgusts me. I really have better things to do than that. Have the last word all you want, I don't think I will respond anymore.

	30-06-2004 20:39									#111
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quote: Perhaps mainly because discussing with somebody who deliberately misunderstands and misquotes me, bores and disgusts me.

No need for such personal attacks Sir Ralph, its only a game.

	30-06-2004 22:50									#112
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That's quite some offense to take over such subjects as preferrence of Civ3 or CtP, eh?

	30-06-2004 23:19									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Perhaps mainly because discussing with somebody who deliberately misunderstands and misquotes me

No, I pull your quotes directly off of your posts - And I can fully judge your intent by the words you use. Don't try to play the martyred saint here...

You wanted to troll, and so we complied. And I can 'quote' you on that. (Do I need to provide another link???)

There's a simple solution - You can put me on your ignore list - no skin off my back...

The absolute funny thing is that it is just a game.

	01-07-2004 04:46									#114
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I am not longer sure what htis thread is about, but in case any are still checking on the barb issue:

He is a screen with about 10 left in one camp. This was after I had already killled two.

Attachment: first.jpg
This has been downloaded 90 time(s).

	01-07-2004 04:48									#115
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Here the stack is down to IIRC 6. They did not come after me as I approached and never attack while I was killing 2 each turn.

They never came to the nearby town either.

Attachment: after.jpg
This has been downloaded 90 time(s).

	01-07-2004 04:51									#116
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I should have mentioned there are two AC on that hill. I would expect that 12 horses could have killed them before they got to the hill if they attacked.

They let me move up and attack and move to the hill. The reason the stack is on an odd number is I would heal any unit that took damage, since I had no need to risk a loss of a unit.

Note that I got the uprising notice beofre either of those two units existed. My point about that is, the barbs could have come to the town when it had only one defender, but never moved.

I took the time to get an archer or a sword to the town and two AC to attack and another to spot for the settler. So to me, this is a bit too timid for barbs.

	01-07-2004 05:32									#117
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I hate barbarians. Is there a score bonus from playing with them?

I think there is a penalty if you turn them off. that's probably why I have never done it.

	01-07-2004 05:49									#118
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AFAIK they do not figure in the score.

	01-07-2004 08:34									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I hate barbarians. Is there a score bonus from playing with them? I think there is a penalty if you turn them off. that's probably why I have never done it.

Scoring penalty (Bonus) for barb level was in CIV 2. It is not a factor in the scoring for CIV III.

	01-07-2004 08:39									#120
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ciii 1.29 awesome
ptw 1.27 awesome

(or whatever the final was)

c3c 1.22 mediocre.

and unfortunately c3c doesn't look like it will be getting an incomplete either, at this point. Its all there.