27-06-2004 22:37									#271
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Also, it is #8 on the list of Palm d'Or winners, and #8 on movies which feature the President (either real or fictional) as the leading character:

Palm winners: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/genres.../?id=cannes.htm

Presidential films: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/genres...d=president.htm

	27-06-2004 22:40									#272
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quote: Interesting that the film cost more to market than to make.

Not surprising, given that Moore's salary is probably nowhere near as high as a Hollywood star's and that his crew consists of one guy with a camera.

	27-06-2004 22:41									#273
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His salary might not be in the Tom Hanks/Julia Roberts range, but you can safely rest that his participation (the "points" I mentioned earlier) is even greater than they can hope to demand. He probably won't outearn Mel Gibson on a strict dollar basis this year, but I bet that he'll blow past him on a relative basis (his take vs. the films cost).

	27-06-2004 22:43									#274
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I didn't argue that. But his salary is all that counts in production costs.

	27-06-2004 22:43									#275
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True, that. Well, his expenses as well, but I'm not going to quibble. The fact still remains that, even if he paid himself $3 million over the course of this production, he brought in a $6 million film that grossed $22 mil. its first weekend. Those are numbers that would make anybody sit up and take notice.

	27-06-2004 22:46									#276
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It's well and good that Moore gets less salary and more percentage. He's more responsible for how his films fare than any one individual is for almost any other film.

	27-06-2004 22:47									#277
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Even than a Gibsonesque director/star

	27-06-2004 22:48									#278
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I've never looked at it that way, but you're most definitely right about that.

	27-06-2004 22:53									#279
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Well, his expenses as well

Double width seat on multiple flights: 10 000$
400 Big Macs: 1 400$
Making every politician in the US look like a complete douchebag: Priceless

	27-06-2004 22:55									#280
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Wait... you spend $3+ on a Big Mac?

	27-06-2004 22:56									#281
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I don't know. I haven't been in a McDonalds in about 3-4 years (and another 3-4 years prior to that).

	27-06-2004 22:57									#282
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He must've gotten the value meals. With a super-sized Diet Coke, I'm sure.

	28-06-2004 00:02									#283
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I find it funny Agathon is still responding to me. quote: Why must a movie that [claims to be presenting the truth] contain no errors at all You tell me.

I take this with a grain of salt or better I just ignore this statement: claims to be presenting the truth
I dont care when people say what their movies should present, I go watch them and make up my own mind. Which I think everyone should do. Let Moore talk as much as he want how great his movie is and how true and what not, just ignore him and judge for yourself.

	28-06-2004 04:52									#284
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I usually don't go off on rants in the course of responding to someone.

No, you just snipe, or post irrelevant comments. Which is worse?

quote: ]Personally I love the people who swallow ludicrous bullcrap like Bush's closeness to the Saudi royal family has hampered the hunt for Osama bin Laden.

It sure has, as has the US kowtowing to the Saudis. The Saudis are Al Qaeda's major funders, most of the 911 hijackers were Saudis, etc.

If it was actually true that Iraq, or North Korea or Iran were the major funders of Al Qaeda and that the hijackers had been from these countries, I'm sure the response would have been much different.

And Moore is not primarily claiming that US closeness (including that of the Bushes) to the Saudis has hampered the hunt for OBL; he's claiming that Bush sought to downplay his own embarrassing connections to the Saudis. In fact, it's worse. The Saudis have had a free pass from many in authority because of the oil. Even some Republicans have had the guts to say that the US should really be going after the Saudis, but that won't happen because of the oil.

quote: Especially when a better point of attack would have been to focous on the sucess sanctions had in containing Iraq and the sucess Bush had in crafting a sustainable sanctions regime along with the international will behoind it before he discarded it in favor of war.

All this shows is the incredible breadth and range of excellent arguments the antiwar people have. A pity you guys have nothing left.

	28-06-2004 04:59									#285
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It certainly makes sense that the US would be up the Saudi's arse, where do you think loads of their oil comes from?

	28-06-2004 05:03									#286
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Doing that in Saudi Arabia is illegal, and you will be beheaded.

Why are people complaining about the barbarity of these beheadings when the Saudis have been doing this for years – there's a horrible clip of it in Moore's film.

In other news:

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/articl...id=040627bo.htm

quote: 'Fahrenheit 9/11' Ignites Box Office Passion by Brandon Gray June 27, 2004 HOLLYWOOD (Box Office Mojo) � Around three million people elected Fahrenheit 9/11 to be the No. 1 movie of America. Incensing as many as it's entrancing, writer-director Michael Moore's Bush bash celebrated over the weekend with an estimated $21.8 million at 868 theaters, Lions Gate trumpeted on Sunday along with co-distributors IFC Films and the Fellowship Adventure Group -- the latter quickly formed by Miramax chiefs Bob and Harvey Weinstein to release the $6 million picture after buying it back from corporate parent Disney. Less than $10 million was spent on prints and advertising, less than a third of the average Hollywood release. With $21.958 million in the till since its record-breaking debut in New York City on Wednesday, Fahrenheit 9/11 is already the highest grossing documentary of all time -- excluding large format, concert and other non-"apples-to-apples" sub-genres � surpassing Moore's own Bowling for Columbine's $21.6 million lifetime gross. Fahrenheit is also the first documentary to land in the weekend top five, let alone be No. 1. Its opening topped Quentin Tarantino's Pulp Fiction's $9.3 million as the best ever for a Cannes Film Festival Palme d'Or winner, and it was Tarantino's jury that handed Moore the prize this year. Though Fahrenheit's $25,115 per theater average is extraordinary, it's not unprecedented. It ranks as the seventh highest all time for a wide release (adjusting for ticket price inflation knocks it down to no. 28) and the third best this year behind The Passion of the Christ's $27,554 and Shrek 2's $25,951. However, they were super-saturation releases playing at 3,043 and 4,163 theaters respectively -- the lower the theater count, the easier it is to have a high average as the release isn't diluted by less populous locations with lower ticket prices. Fahrenheit's performance harkens back to the days when big movies wouldn't play in every nook and cranny of the country, but would bow at around 700 or 1,000 theaters to sell out crowds. Perhaps the greatest example of this, Return of the Jedi debuted to $23 million at 1,002 theaters in 1983, which would adjust to $45 million by today's ticket prices. In terms of raw dollars, Fahrenheit is actually the biggest opening ever for a movie playing at less than 1,000 theaters, topping Rocky III's $12.4 million at 939 venues. Controversy is proving to be bigger business than ever. Prior to this year, it was seen as a way to raise awareness and help bolster a picture to modest returns (Dogma, Last Temptation of Christ). Chatter about its global warming themes didn't hurt The Day After Tomorrow either, which opened beyond expectations and is a solid blockbuster with $175 million to date. But it was Moore and Mel Gibson with The Passion of the Christ who have taken it to the next level: Controversy as saturation marketing campaign. Though The Passion is perceived as the opposite of Fahrenheit in terms of whom it appeals to, both Moore and Gibson enlisted today's mass media to work for them, knowing that everyone from 24-hour news channels to talk radio would eat up the grand hot topic issues of their movies with the littlest of stoking. Gibson took the more strategic approach with his surgical strike appearances and screenings, but he had months to wage his campaign. Fahrenheit didn't have a release date, let alone a distributor, until a few weeks ago, so Moore and company used the shotgun approach, showing up everywhere and heralding every single development of the movie's progress. Fahrenheit 9/11 will add theaters next weekend and is scheduled to expand again on July 9. It hasn't been determined how many yet. NOTE: Box Office Mojo asked Michael Moore and company to comment for this story, but they wanted to screen the questions in advance. As policy, Box Office Mojo does not conduct interviews under such circumstances, so there will be no comment from them. Weekend estimates are based on estimates for Friday and Saturday plus a projection for Sunday. They will be revised with actual numbers on Monday afternoon.

	28-06-2004 05:07									#287
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This is particularly funny:

quote: "I want to thank all the right-wing organizations out there who tried to stop the film, either from their harassment campaign that didn't work on the theatre owners, or going to the FEC to get our ads removed from television, to all the things that have been said on television," Moore said. "It's only encouraged more people to go and see it."

	28-06-2004 05:27									#288
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Personally I love the people who swallow ludicrous bullcrap like Bush's closeness to the Saudi royal family has hampered the hunt for Osama bin Laden. Especially when a better point of attack would have been to focous on the sucess sanctions had in containing Iraq and the sucess Bush had in crafting a sustainable sanctions regime along with the international will behoind it before he discarded it in favor of war. But why let facts get in the way of preaching to the choir, eh GePap?

The funny thing is DD, obviously you don't read people's posts that well, given my review of the movie in the previous page.

BUt you point out a wonderful fallacy with this one- you make it as if its either X or Z when in fact no such problem exists. Moore could say both the things you mentioned above without interfering with each other. More importatly, he is under no more obligation than anyone else to present any view but his own.

I thought his treatment of Iraq was facile (do try to read what others post, why don;t yah? I mean, I know your posts are usually tiny and easy to digest, but some of us have a little more to say sometimes) but then, that has nothing to do with the impact or quality of the film, given that what he is doing is presenting his own point of view.

	28-06-2004 05:33									#289
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quote: Originally posted by Verto quote: CLW's own analysis of the 2001 budget, however, shows that $250 billion is the total multiyear cost of the Joint Strike Fighter program, not the amount spent in one year. $1.6 trillion, meanwhile, was the total amount of money requested by the Pentagon at the time for 2001-2005. It covers five years, not four, and is a total budget request, not a "proposed increase" over previously requested budget levels. It shouldn't even take this much research, however, to determine that out of the total defense budget request of $305.4 billion in 2001, $250 billion was never intended to go toward one type of plane, nor that an increase of $400 billion per year in military spending was never proposed.

Wait 2005-2001= 4. NOw, obviously they are talking Fiscal years and not year years, but still, how do they get 5 years from 2001 to 2005? Assuming F'01 request occured in '00 and F'05 requests in '04, as is generally the case....

Heck, I even counted this with my fingers. So Verto, can you clear up this genius analysis for me and show my mistake in counting-please, cause I don;t want to be the one to point out a mistake like that. So, I am wrong cause they are including F'00, or F'06 as well?

	28-06-2004 05:44									#290
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FY 2001 $305.4 billion
FY 2002 $309.2 billion
FY 2003 $315.6 billion
FY 2004 $323.4 billion
FY 2005 $331.7 billion

5 year total B.A. from FY 2001-2005 =

$1.6 trillion

Those figures are from http://www.clw.org/milspend/dodbud01.html, the website Moore is supposed to cite in his book Stupid White Men.

	28-06-2004 05:52									#291
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2001
2002
2003
2004
2005

that might be how they got it.

	28-06-2004 05:52									#292
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There you go. Those guys should be much more clear cause Fiscal Year is not the same as year though. For example, its 2004 here, but fiscal '05 at least in NYC begins July 1st.

	28-06-2004 05:58									#293
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Here's another interesting bit from spinsanity regarding Stupid White Men.

quote: Consider, for instance, his claim that "two-thirds of [the over $190 million President Bush raised during the presidential campaign] came from just over seven hundred individuals." Given the $2,000 federal limit on individual donations, this claim is obviously false. To back it up, he cites the Center for Responsive Politics Web site (opensecrets.org) and an August 2000 article from the New York Times. As opensecrets.org clearly indicates, however, only 52.6 percent of Bush's total $193 million in campaign funds came from individuals. The Times article Moore references actually states that 739 people gave two-thirds of the soft money raised by the Republican Party (which uses its money for "party-building" activities that support all GOP candidates, not just Bush) in the 2000 election cycle as of June of that year. Whether out of malice or laziness, Moore conflates the party's soft money with Bush's campaign funds.

	28-06-2004 07:53									#294
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT I am going to see a movie today, but God - It's either seeing this one and missing the final week of Kill Bill vol. 2, or seeing KB2 again. Oh, well... you gotta go where your heart leads you:

In case y'all care, the second viewing was better than the first. Can't wait until it comes out on DVD! (August 10th).

	28-06-2004 08:04									#295
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I must admit I have seen neither of the Kill Bill movies.

	28-06-2004 08:06									#296
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You're missing a great movie. The sort you can't get out of your head.

	28-06-2004 08:12									#297
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The Kill Bill movies, while definitely enjoyable and above average in terms of storytelling, are by no means great works of film. They are (to crib a line from a review I wholeheartedly agree with) "relatively clever pastiches". Nothing close to the quality and originality of either Reservoir Dogs or Pulp Fiction.

	28-06-2004 08:13									#298
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I have no plans to buy either of the KB films. Have seen both once, and that's enough for me.

	28-06-2004 08:34									#299
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The Kill Bill movies, while definitely enjoyable and above average in terms of storytelling, are by no means great works of film. They are (to crib a line from a review I wholeheartedly agree with) "relatively clever pastiches". Nothing close to the quality and originality of either Reservoir Dogs or Pulp Fiction.

I emphatically disagree. However, this is not the thread.

Carry on Verto, Agathon!

	28-06-2004 08:34									#300
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michael moore was on 60 minutes tonite.