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Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > So, have YOU seen "Fahrenheit 9/11"?
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Verto is offline Verto

King

Mar 2002
time: 23:37
  Old Post 29-06-2004 05:22
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For convenience, here are the two bits from Spinsanity I posted before, criticizing his book Stupid White Men.

quote:

Consider, for instance, his claim that "two-thirds of [the over $190 million President Bush raised during the presidential campaign] came from just over seven hundred individuals." Given the $2,000 federal limit on individual donations, this claim is obviously false. To back it up, he cites the Center for Responsive Politics Web site (opensecrets.org) and an August 2000 article from the New York Times. As opensecrets.org clearly indicates, however, only 52.6 percent of Bush's total $193 million in campaign funds came from individuals.

The Times article Moore references actually states that 739 people gave two-thirds of the soft money raised by the Republican Party (which uses its money for "party-building" activities that support all GOP candidates, not just Bush) in the 2000 election cycle as of June of that year. Whether out of malice or laziness, Moore conflates the party's soft money with Bush's campaign funds.


quote:
In a discussion of Pentagon spending, he refers to the "$250 billion the Pentagon plans to spend in 2001 to build 2800 new Joint Strike Fighter planes" and states that "the proposed increase in monies for the Pentagon over the next four years is $1.6 trillion." To back this up, he refers to the Web site of the peace activist group Council for a Livable World. CLW's own analysis of the 2001 budget, however, shows that $250 billion is the total multiyear cost of the Joint Strike Fighter program, not the amount spent in one year. $1.6 trillion, meanwhile, was the total amount of money requested by the Pentagon at the time for 2001-2005. It covers five years, not four, and is a total budget request, not a "proposed increase" over previously requested budget levels. It shouldn't even take this much research, however, to determine that out of the total defense budget request of $305.4 billion in 2001, $250 billion was never intended to go toward one type of plane, nor that an increase of $400 billion per year in military spending was never proposed.

Verto is offline Verto

King

Mar 2002
time: 23:37
  Old Post 29-06-2004 07:19
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I can see I've been thoroughly licked.

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
Deity
Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
time: 15:37
  Old Post 29-06-2004 09:19 Visit Alexander's Horse's homepage!
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yep

Ramo is offline Ramo
King
Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:37
  Old Post 29-06-2004 09:32 Visit Ramo's homepage!
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I just saw it.

The first half of the movie was fairly lame. The worst parts were the descriptions of the Bush-Saudi-bin Laden-Cargyle Group conspiracy. It's almost as half-baked as the bin Laden-Saddam conspiracy Dear Leader has been trumpeting around. The best part of the first half was the covering of Shrub in front of the school children, doing absolutely nothing during the attacks.

The second part was really exceptional. Almost all of it was very good and very moving from showing scenes of Iraq the manstream media deems unsuitable for public consumptuion, to demonstrating how the burden of the fight fell on the poor. He let the footage do the talking, a smart move.

Berzerker is offline Berzerker
Emperor
topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:37
  Old Post 29-06-2004 10:09
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quote:
to demonstrating how the burden of the fight fell on the poor


No doubt our system is set up in such a way as to invite poorer people to join the military, but I understand there is a scene in which Moore walks up and asks a congressman to sign a petition or something to send the children of Congress to go to Iraq (Moore opposes a draft? hmm) and it just happened Moore chose a guy whose son is in the military and shipping out for Iraq but Moore deleted his response.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

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The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
time: 13:37
  Old Post 29-06-2004 10:17
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That was covered in this thread oohh way back.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 29-06-2004 10:18 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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Doubtful, given that there is only one congressman with a child serving in the military and there are 435 congressmen.

Even if eh did, it would be pure luck and not indicative of the real situation

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:37
  Old Post 29-06-2004 11:39
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quote:
I hear MM ripped off the idea of having a couple of minutes of sounds recorded during 9/11 being played back with a blank screen from some other 9/11 documentary.


He did.

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
Deity
Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
time: 15:37
  Old Post 29-06-2004 17:33 Visit Alexander's Horse's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Verto
Yes, Moore knows his base is made up of people who care little for factual accuracy, so long as his message is one they agree with.


You mean the kind of people that vote for Bush?

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:37
  Old Post 29-06-2004 17:45
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quote:
It's a bit of a difference between someone like, say, the president suing a film maker and writer like Moore for libel, compare to said film maker and writer suing some idiot blogger on the internet.


Yeah, it is much harder for the President to win. Being a 'public figure' as the POTUS, the standard for proving libel is much higher and harder than someone like Moore (who I guess is becomming more and more a 'public figure') to do the same.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:37
  Old Post 29-06-2004 18:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
best-performing "documentary"


Liar

(course you did put it in quotes)

Lastly, repeated claims from Moore that he is an independant are now being proven false. He is registered as a Democrat in NYC despite helping Nader in 2000.

Pax is offline Pax
Chieftain

Feb 2003
time: 05:37
  Old Post 29-06-2004 22:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
repeated claims from Moore that he is an independant are now being proven false. He is registered as a Democrat in NYC despite helping Nader in 2000.
Based on his voting for nader I would call him independant. Registering as a democrat is just a technicality.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:37
  Old Post 30-06-2004 00:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Pax
Based on his voting for nader I would call him independant. Registering as a democrat is just a technicality.


Voting record is not the point particularly since there is no definitive way of knowing his voting record.

Registering is the point. Michael has denied his registration numerous times in order to gain credence as an 'unbiased' film maker. He created that image in order to dissuade folk from thinking he was a partisan hack in the employ of the democratic party. Just because he or anyone else chooses to vote for other candidates does not mean they are not a member of the party for which they have registered.

Heck I was a Republican once upon a time. I voted for a number of Democrats, doesn't mean I wasn't a republican then.

Guynemer is offline Guynemer
King

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Mar 1999
time: 00:37
  Old Post 30-06-2004 01:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Heck I was a Republican once upon a time.




Admitting you have a problem is the first step towards recovery.

MrFun is offline MrFun
King
of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:37
  Old Post 30-06-2004 03:14 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe

He created that image in order to dissuade folk from thinking he was a partisan hack in the employ of the democratic party.


Yeah -- just like Republicans have their own hacks that work for them (Limbaugh, Coulter, etc.).

livid imp is offline livid imp
Prince
Gimme a quarter or I'll touch you
Mar 2004
time: 21:37
  Old Post 30-06-2004 03:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Verto
Or vice versa. If the websites accusing Moore of making false statements are lying, why isn't Moore suing them for libel?


I believe he had threatened to sue a few of his critics for making false statements, but it never got to court, they retracted or whatever happened. Unfortunately I don't have the sources, so I can't back this up 100%. It is just something I remember hearing on the news.

Secondly, when a Moore critic puts out a book or a radio show, etc. you don't see Moore calling for the censorship of their works the way the American right did for F911. To me, this is the most disturbing thing I've seen the right do since killing abortion doctors.

I find it supremely hypocritical for any American to support censorship just because they don't like the message. If you think the message is wrong, then make your rebuttal, and then let the people decide who has the more sound argument.

MrFun is offline MrFun
King
of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:37
  Old Post 30-06-2004 03:17 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by livid imp

To me, this is the most disturbing thing I've seen the right do since killing abortion doctors.



The vast majority of conservatives do not advocate the killing of doctors since they believe that murder is immoral.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:37
  Old Post 30-06-2004 03:18
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quote:
you don't see Moore calling for the censorship of their works the way the American right did for F911.


Seeing as how the American right didn't call for censorship of F911, this statement makes no sense.

MrFun is offline MrFun
King
of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:37
  Old Post 30-06-2004 03:22 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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Exactly, Imran -- no matter how much individuals may protest against any film, it is within their right to freedom of speech to do so.

It's unfair to accuse critics of wanton censorship unless that is what they are really advocating.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:37
  Old Post 30-06-2004 03:25
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Well, then again he thinks the right backs killing of abortion doctors .

MrFun is offline MrFun
King
of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:37
  Old Post 30-06-2004 03:25 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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And I countered that piece of bullsh*t too.

Verto is offline Verto

King

Mar 2002
time: 23:37
  Old Post 30-06-2004 03:33
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quote:
Originally posted by livid imp
Secondly, when a Moore critic puts out a book or a radio show, etc. you don't see Moore calling for the censorship of their works the way the American right did for F911. To me, this is the most disturbing thing I've seen the right do since killing abortion doctors.

I find it supremely hypocritical for any American to support censorship just because they don't like the message. If you think the message is wrong, then make your rebuttal, and then let the people decide who has the more sound argument.


I have no advocated censoring this film, nor have I seen evidence of anyone trying to do so. Yes, some contacted their local theater owners asking them to boycott F911, but that is not censorship.

I just believe Moore's films are too biased, too 'loose' with the facts, too creative in it's editing, to be classified by a documentary, and I wish the media would not categorize it as that. It gives the impression that Moore's works are factually accurate and at least somewhat objective, when they are clearly not.

JohnT is offline JohnT

Emperor
Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:37
  Old Post 30-06-2004 03:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
you don't see Moore calling for the censorship of their works the way the American right did for F911.


Seeing as how the American right didn't call for censorship of F911, this statement makes no sense.


Like I said earlier in this thread, there's a lot more complaining about right-wing antics than there have been right-wing antics. From the Disney spat to Che complaining that 88% of all theater owners/managers in the country received death threats, the controversy has been manufactured, not by the Right, but by the Left.

livid imp is offline livid imp
Prince
Gimme a quarter or I'll touch you
Mar 2004
time: 21:37
  Old Post 30-06-2004 04:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
you don't see Moore calling for the censorship of their works the way the American right did for F911.


Seeing as how the American right didn't call for censorship of F911, this statement makes no sense.


I supposed there wasn't anyone pressuring Disney to shelve the film, right? Clearly Disney just didn't want to make millions of dollars.

loinburger is offline loinburger
Emperor
Sweet Sauce Jones
Jul 1999
time: 00:37
  Old Post 30-06-2004 05:00 Visit loinburger's homepage!
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I saw the film while I was puttering around out west (I needed a day out of the sun), and I was pretty disappointed in it. Not nearly as entertaining as Roger and Me or Bowling for Columbine, and its conspiracy theories struck me as being far more over-the-top and/or incoherent than in Moore's previous films. F'rinstance, the conspiracy theory regarding the stolen 2000 election was completely out of place with the purported subject matter of the film. It certainly wasn't a waste of five bucks, but nor was it a film I'd see again any time soon.

JohnT is offline JohnT

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Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:37
  Old Post 30-06-2004 05:03
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quote:
I supposed there wasn't anyone pressuring Disney to shelve the film, right? Clearly Disney just didn't want to make millions of dollars.


There wasn't.

1. The decision by Disney was made while the film was production, possibly before. Not this past May as Moore wanted people to think, but in March of 2003.

2. Disney didn't decide to "shelve" the film, which literally means just that: putting the cans of film on a shelf and not releasing the film. Rather, they decided not to release it under its banner. If they honestly wanted to squelch it as people are saying, they wouldn't have sold it... or at least waited until after the election to put it in turnaround.

Ramo is offline Ramo
King
Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:37
  Old Post 30-06-2004 05:13 Visit Ramo's homepage!
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quote:

No doubt our system is set up in such a way as to invite poorer people to join the military, but I understand there is a scene in which Moore walks up and asks a congressman to sign a petition or something to send the children of Congress to go to Iraq (Moore opposes a draft? hmm) and it just happened Moore chose a guy whose son is in the military and shipping out for Iraq but Moore deleted his response.


According to the articles posted earlier in the thread, it's nephews not a son in the military. It certainly was shady to edit out his response but the point that he was making that the children of the elite aren't the people fighting the war. For instance, I think Biden is the only Senator who has a child serving in the armed forces, and there are only a couple House members (Moore asserted that there was only one Congressman who has a child serving, but I'm pretty sure that's wrong). He also was following some Marine recruiters around, and it was striking that they decided to ignore the rich areas of the city that they were recruiting in, and focus exclusively on the poor.

molly bloom is offline molly bloom
Prince
Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:37
  Old Post 30-06-2004 05:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
[q]
...and it was striking that they decided to ignore the rich areas of the city that they were recruiting in, and focus exclusively on the poor.


Yes, but Ramo- you need to understand.

The future J. Danforth Quayles and George Bush Jr.s are needed to save the Heima- sorry, homeland, from bag snatchers and documentary makers.

It would be a shame to let those expensive educations go to waste.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:37
  Old Post 30-06-2004 05:29
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun


Yeah -- just like Republicans have their own hacks that work for them (Limbaugh, Coulter, etc.).


I see you agree with Imran's take on Moore that he is the left's version of Limbaugh (as such to be completely thrust on the trash heap of the non credible)

MrFun is offline MrFun
King
of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:37
  Old Post 30-06-2004 06:23 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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pretty much, Ogie

 
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