27-06-2004 08:50									#211
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Well we do have his claims to be presenting the truth but I will agree that Bowling is a trifling thing to bring up.

	27-06-2004 08:52									#212
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Trifling or not, I am like Sava. I like to present information to people.

And, to be fair, I don't want to "attack" his latest film until I have seen it.

	27-06-2004 08:52									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Spinsanity: quote: Ironically, on the same day the DVD was released, Moore issued a libel threat against his critics on MSNBC's "Buchanan & Press," saying, "Every fact in the film is true. Absolutely every fact in the film is true. And anybody who says otherwise is committing an act of libel."

That's not a direct cite, that's someone claiming Moore said it. Where's the cite from Moore? I've seen people falsifying what he said enough to not trust it. And again, I want the context.

	27-06-2004 08:53									#214
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Will Michael Moore's own website suffice?

I can guarantee to you, without equivocation, that every fact in my movie is true. Three teams of fact-checkers and two groups of lawyers went through it with a fine tooth comb to make sure that every statement of fact is indeed an indisputable fact. Trust me, no film company would ever release a film like this without putting it through the most vigorous vetting process possible. The sheer power and threat of the NRA is reason enough to strike fear in any movie studio or theater chain. The NRA will go after you without mercy if they think there's half a chance of destroying you. That's why we don't have better gun laws in this country – every member of Congress is scared to death of them.

	27-06-2004 08:56									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Which? F911? I haven't seen it yet. I intend to next week, if possible.

I thought you said you were gonna see it tonite?

	27-06-2004 08:59									#216
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I thought you said you were gonna see it tonite?

I lied.

My theater of preference was showing it at times that didn't suit me. Have no fear; I wouldn't miss this for the world.

	27-06-2004 09:02									#217
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Will Michael Moore's own website suffice?

Where? I'm not finding it, and you're not providing links.

	27-06-2004 09:04									#218
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http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/

5th paragraph from the bottom I believe.

	27-06-2004 09:07									#219
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Will Michael Moore's own website suffice? I can guarantee to you, without equivocation, that every fact in my movie is true.

I'd like to point out something that you didn't catch. He isn't claiming that his movie is error free, hes making a tautology.

Every fact below is true:
------------------------------------------------
1 + 1 = 2
The earth rotates around the sun
2 + 2 = 5
-------------------------------------------------
It stands to reason that a Fact is true(or it wouldn't be a fact), and that bullshit is still bullshit.

	27-06-2004 09:08									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Verto I lied.

So nothing you write can ever be trusted again.

	27-06-2004 09:09									#221
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I was hoping you'd finally link to that page. Did you notice this part?

quote: Finally, I've even been asked about whether the two killers were at bowling class on the morning of the shootings. Well, that's what their teacher told the investigators, and that's what was corroborated by several eyewitness reports of students to the police, the FBI, and the District Attorney's office. I'll tell you who wasn't there -- me! That's why in the film I pose it as a question: "So did Dylan and Eric show up that morning and bowl two games before moving on to shoot up the school? And did they just chuck the balls down the lane? Did this mean something?" Of course, it's a silly discussion, and it misses the whole, larger point: that blaming bowling for their killing spree would be as dumb as blaming Marilyn Manson.

Keep trying.

	27-06-2004 09:09									#222
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha I'd like to point out something that you didn't catch. He isn't claiming that his movie is error free, hes making a tautology. Every fact below is true: ------------------------------------------------ 1 + 1 = 2 The earth rotates around the sun 2 + 2 = 5 ------------------------------------------------- It stands to reason that a Fact is true(or it wouldn't be a fact), and that bullshit is still bullshit.

I did catch that, and posted about it in this, or the other MM thread. I could only assume, however, he meant everything in his movie is true.

	27-06-2004 09:12									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Verto I could only assume, however, he meant everything in his movie is true.

Regardless, the context is also important. If you read the whole page, in that paragraph he is specifically addressing certain claims made by the NRA, and once can also reasonably assume he is referring to the statements relating to that organization and what they said.

Still, as Moore pointed out, he didn't present what he or anyone else knew to be a falsehood wrt to the bowling claims.

	27-06-2004 09:13									#224
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No, he couldn't claim that, or he would have used more precise language such as "All the assertions/statements in my film are true". That statement was crafted to be "truthful" but trivially so.

	27-06-2004 09:15									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha No, he couldn't claim that, or he would have used more precise language such as "All the assertions/statements in my film are true". That statement was crafted to be "truthful" but trivially so.

I pointed this very thing out earlier. Moore isn't stupid, he's quite clever. He has used little tactics like this to trap his unthinking critics into making themselves look like jerks.

	27-06-2004 09:16									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I was hoping you'd finally link to that page. Did you notice this part? Keep trying.

His eyewitness reports. These are the words of bowlingfortruth.com, but they corroborate with the documents Moore links to at his site.


DAO Office - He saw Klebold (wearing black cargo pants and a gray t-shirt), but not Harris.

Echrister - Wasn't sure whether or not they attended class that day.

Jconcilio - Says Harris was there (wearing a flannel shirt and jeans), but Klebold wasn't.

Jros - She's the mother of a student who was in the bowling-class, but wasn't there; says her daughter saw Harris that day.

Kmac - She and a friend saw them in the parking-lot.

	27-06-2004 09:19									#227
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So verto, would that be a fact that they were at class?

	27-06-2004 09:23									#228
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha It stands to reason that a Fact is true(or it wouldn't be a fact), and that bullshit is still bullshit.

Wrong, a fact is any thing which can be proven true or false.

	27-06-2004 09:24									#229
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It would be that you have eyewitnesses who either were unsure if they attended, eyewitnesses who say they saw one, and eyewitnesses who saw both.

It would also be that, according to later police reports, they skipped.

	27-06-2004 09:27									#230
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quote: Originally posted by Verto His eyewitness reports. These are the words of bowlingfortruth.com, but they corroborate with the documents Moore links to at his site. DAO Office - He saw Klebold (wearing black cargo pants and a gray t-shirt), but not Harris. Echrister - Wasn't sure whether or not they attended class that day. Jconcilio - Says Harris was there (wearing a flannel shirt and jeans), but Klebold wasn't. Jros - She's the mother of a student who was in the bowling-class, but wasn't there; says her daughter saw Harris that day. Kmac - She and a friend saw them in the parking-lot.

Um, did you read the reports that Moore links to? The bowling teacher said in her report to the police that she thought both were there that day.
The other reports aren't conclusive, but none of them prove the two weren't there.

Which isn't the point, since, as Moore points out, he phrased the whole thing as a question, "were they there?"

What exactly were you trying to prove with this tangent again?

	27-06-2004 09:32									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Um, did you read the reports that Moore links to? The bowling teacher said in her report to the police that she thought both were there that day. The other reports aren't conclusive, but none of them prove the two weren't there. Which isn't the point, since, as Moore points out, he phrased the whole thing as a question, "were they there?" What exactly were you trying to prove with this tangent again?

Moore initially stated on his website that "the title is taken from the little-known fact that the two killers, Dylan and Eric, were at a bowling class at Columbine High School on the morning of the murders."

He later changed this to "they were supposed to be.."

	27-06-2004 09:33									#232
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Oh well. Nighty night.

	27-06-2004 09:33									#233
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Wrong, a fact is any thing which can be proven true or false.

It depends on how Moore used the word, in this case, he is certainly not saying that everything in his film is truthful.

	27-06-2004 09:35									#234
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Moore initially stated on his website that "the title is taken from the little-known fact that the two killers, Dylan and Eric, were at a bowling class at Columbine High School on the morning of the murders." He later changed this to "they were supposed to be.."

Yeah, because at first, the evidence from the reports said they were. It was later doubted by investigators, so when Moore knew that, he changed the info to match the new facts at hand.

And the problem with this is...?

If this is the best you can do to try and brand Moore a liar, it's pretty pathetic.

	27-06-2004 11:06									#235
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT I also seem to remember that the phrase Something Wicked This Way Comes is not original with Bradbury either... is it from the Bible?

Macbeth

	27-06-2004 11:17									#236
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"Boil, boil, toil and trouble..."

	27-06-2004 11:37									#237
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"Double, double, toil and trouble..."

	27-06-2004 11:39									#238
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Hey hey

Just saw Fahrenheit 9/11 tonight.

Excellent, excellent film. Everybody owes it to themselves to get out there and view it.

	27-06-2004 11:50									#239
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They have it out in Montana?

	27-06-2004 12:03									#240
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten "Double, double, toil and trouble..."

Inside joke; you wouldn't know it. Said it 'cause it sounds odd. Thought I'd share.