25-06-2004 20:46									#31
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Florida r0x0rs my s0x0rs.

	25-06-2004 20:48									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie I should have known a terrorist like Verto would defend a murderer.

Why, I'm just defending a man against he libelous and possibly slanderous statement that Moore initially made. You know, like how Moore says anyone who criticizes his film for having error is committing libel.

	25-06-2004 20:49									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Yes, I say that, right after he states that "I can guarantee to you, without equivocation, that every fact in my movie is true." I am puzzled as to when a fact can be untrue, yet remain a fact. So, he admits there is a "typo", although how one can call it a typo when you use murder instead of rape...he then tries to use sarcasm to make you want to shrug the whole thing off. Similar to how rockets that place satellites into space are weapons of mass destruction. In his own words, "That Lockheed lets the occasional weather or TV satellite hitch a ride on one of its rockets should not distract anyone from Lockheed's main mission and moneymaker in Littleton: to make instruments that help kill people. That two of Littleton's children decided to engineer their own mass killing is what these guys and the Internet crazies don't want to discuss."

uhmmm you are seriously grasping at straws...

and what's with this lockheed apologist bs? they make nuclear missiles... they make weapons... they're primary purpose and main business is weapons. But you are acting like they're a bunch of scientists out to only do good.

what a strange world you live in...

	25-06-2004 20:50									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Why, I'm just defending a man against he libelous and possibly slanderous statement that Moore initially made. You know, like how Moore says anyone who criticizes his film for having error is committing libel.

IIRC, apologizing for a mistake, and correcting it kind of protects you from libel.

	25-06-2004 20:53									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Sava uhmmm you are seriously grasping at straws... and what's with this lockheed apologist bs? they make nuclear missiles... they make weapons... they're primary purpose and main business is weapons. But you are acting like they're a bunch of scientists out to only do good. what a strange world you live in...

No, I am acting like they produce rockets that put satellites into space. Moore admits this, yet he tries to say that because they made missiles, like the Peacekeeper, 20+ years ago, two wackjobs decided to shoot up their school.

quote: IIRC, apologizing for a mistake, and correcting it kind of protects you from libel.

Which is why I said the libelous statement Moore initially made.

	25-06-2004 20:54									#36
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You know... Verto would be much more likable if he got as mad at Bush about "lies" and "mistakes" as he does about Michael Moore. I mean, Michael Moore's "mistakes" (or this one Horton thing because there hasn't been any other) have to do with a movie. A movie... i mean, that means nothing! who the hell cares about a damn movie.

But yet, Bush gets up there and lieslieslieslieslieslieslies about WMD, liesliesliesliesleisleislieslies about Iraq/AQ... takes us into a war that claims tens of thousands of lives (nearly a thousands US soldiers), not to mention over $150 billion (so far)... but yet, Michael Moore gets a rant because of some dopey murderer/rapist error.

it just boggles the mind how one person could be so monumentally hypocritical in his criticism of someone over a mistake in a movie... but yet silent (and even supportive) of a proven liar responsible for the major problem in the world today (Bush... Iraq...)

	25-06-2004 20:54									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Which is why I said the libelous statement Moore initially made.

So why don't you dwell on all the libelous statements his critics have made, and do make? That is, of course, if 'libel' is what really concerns you.

	25-06-2004 20:58									#38
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Verto would be much more likeable if he actually watched Michael Moore's films before attacking them

"Moore admits this, yet he tries to say that because they made missiles, like the Peacekeeper, 20+ years ago, two wackjobs decided to shoot up their school."

Speaking of libel...

	25-06-2004 20:59									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Sava You know... Verto would be much more likable if he got as mad at Bush about "lies" and "mistakes" as he does about Michael Moore. I mean, Michael Moore's "mistakes" (or this one Horton thing because there hasn't been any other) have to do with a movie. A movie... i mean, that means nothing! who the hell cares about a damn movie.

There are other mistakes and errors, I pointed out the Lockheed one already. He tries to act as if the factory is churning out nukes, when they do not.

quote: But yet, Bush gets up there and lieslieslieslieslieslieslies about WMD, liesliesliesliesleisleislieslies about Iraq/AQ... takes us into a war that claims tens of thousands of lives (nearly a thousands US soldiers), not to mention over $150 billion (so far)... but yet, Michael Moore gets a rant because of some dopey murderer/rapist error.

Do I support the Iraq war? Yes. Do I wish we hadn't gone in the way we did? Yes. Do I also understand the reasons and precedent for going to war? Yes. Do I 100% support Bush? No.

	25-06-2004 21:03									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie Verto would be much more likeable if he actually watched Michael Moore's films before attacking them

For the umpteenthtime, I have seen BfC. So, speaking of libel.

quote: "Moore admits this, yet he tries to say that because they made missiles, like the Peacekeeper, 20+ years ago, two wackjobs decided to shoot up their school."

Was this not the message he was trying to get across? His own website says "Since that interview, the Titan IV rockets manufactured in Littleton have been critical to the war effort in both Afghanistan and Iraq. These rockets launched advanced satellites that were "instrumental in providing command-and-control operations over Iraq...for the rapid targeting of Navy Tomahawk cruise missiles involved in Iraqi strikes and clandestine communications with Special Operations Forces.

That Lockheed lets the occasional weather or TV satellite hitch a ride on one of its rockets should not distract anyone from Lockheed's main mission and moneymaker in Littleton: to make instruments that help kill people. That two of Littleton's children decided to engineer their own mass killing is what these guys and the Internet crazies don't want to discuss."

Is he not trying to say that Lockheed makes weapons of "mass killing"? Does he not try to make the connection that, because Lockheed made those "weapons", Columbine occurred?

	25-06-2004 21:04									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Verto He tries to act as if the factory is churning out nukes, when they do not.

No he doesn't, you're putting words in his mouth. You're stretching what he says about things that "kill people" into something he isn't saying. Your own hyperbole is killing any validity for your criticism of Moore.

Moore has had a field day slicing and dicing his critics over their use of such hysterical arguments. It's a testament to the fear he inspires among the right wing.

	25-06-2004 21:05									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Verto There are other mistakes and errors, I pointed out the Lockheed one already. He tries to act as if the factory is churning out nukes, when they do not.

You do realise that even in the quoted words you used he mentions that they make satellites, ect. ect.. aswell as being involved in weapons programs?

	25-06-2004 21:09									#43
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quote: Is he not trying to say that Lockheed makes weapons of "mass killing"?

uhmm they do... DUH!

quote: Does he not try to make the connection that, because Lockheed made those "weapons", Columbine occurred?

that's your conclusion... based upon some pretty ****ed reasoning if I do say so myself.

	25-06-2004 21:12									#44
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So back to the original topic, of course not. But then I haven't seen a movie in a while. Nothing but a stream of crap has come out of hollywood for the longest time.

	25-06-2004 21:14									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Verto For the umpteenthtime, I have seen BfC. So, speaking of libel. Was this not the message he was trying to get across? His own website says "Since that interview, the Titan IV rockets manufactured in Littleton have been critical to the war effort in both Afghanistan and Iraq. These rockets launched advanced satellites that were "instrumental in providing command-and-control operations over Iraq...for the rapid targeting of Navy Tomahawk cruise missiles involved in Iraqi strikes and clandestine communications with Special Operations Forces. That Lockheed lets the occasional weather or TV satellite hitch a ride on one of its rockets should not distract anyone from Lockheed's main mission and moneymaker in Littleton: to make instruments that help kill people. That two of Littleton's children decided to engineer their own mass killing is what these guys and the Internet crazies don't want to discuss." Is he not trying to say that Lockheed makes weapons of "mass killing"? Does he not try to make the connection that, because Lockheed made those "weapons", Columbine occurred?

The bolded part you high-lighted was in refereance to the children, not lockheed. What he says about lockheed is to make instruments that help kill people. which is exactly what they do.

And the connection he is making is that those children come from a society that is actively participating in an arms race and is developing 'weapons of mass killing', for use in wars. He is demonstrating that those children are in a sense a reflection of that society.

	25-06-2004 21:14									#46
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Moore's asserting that the Lockheed weapons-making business in Littleton has fostered an atmosphere of condoned violence which made it more possible for those kids to do what they did. Sounds to me like the same line of thought that violent video games or music with violent lyrics influences such behavior. If you accept the latter as possible, then I don't see how you can reject the former as possible.

Regardless, the point is that Moore is making a conclusion based on the facts presented. You may disagree with the conclusion, but accusing him of "lying" in this case is preposterous and is, in itself, false. He hasn't presented false information, merely given his spin on what he sees. That's not remotely libel.

	25-06-2004 21:15									#47
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Verto

Fight the good fight against the Left's Limbaugh (and they seem to defend like the far right does with Limbaugh as well )

	25-06-2004 21:15									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Is he not trying to say that Lockheed makes weapons of "mass killing"?

They do.

quote: Does he not try to make the connection that, because Lockheed made those "weapons", Columbine occurred?

No, he's pointing out the irony of a culture in which warfare and killing is the norm that gets all crazy about two kids going on a rampage. The very title of the film is part of that irony. The two murderers went bowling the in the monring, right before they went to the school and began killing. No one ever blamed bowling for making these kids murderers, yet Marilyn Manson (interviewed in the film), the video game Doom, etc. were all blamed. No one pointed to the killing our government was doing in Yugoslavia at the very moment those kids were running around Columbine.

I realize irony may sometimes be too subtle for right-wingers, but if you'd seen the movie, you'd realize he wasn't blaming Lockheed.

	25-06-2004 21:24									#49
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Verto

Fight the good fight against the Left's Limbaugh (and they seem to defend like the far right does with Limbaugh as well )

	25-06-2004 21:28									#50
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Lot's of double posts.

Last edited by General Ludd on 25-06-2004 at 21:45

	25-06-2004 21:29									#51
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I wonder if you have been reading the thread Imran...

	25-06-2004 21:29									#52
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I realize irony may sometimes be too subtle for right-wingers, but if you'd seen the movie, you'd realize he wasn't blaming Lockheed.

You're right. I haven't seen the movie. I've been lying this whole time.

	25-06-2004 21:40									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Verto You're right. I haven't seen the movie. I've been lying this whole time.

Either that, or you have blatantly misrepresented what you've seen in the movie to present a false notion that Moore somehow lied about Lockheed Martin, which he didn't, and also a clear misrepresentation of what Moore was saying in the film. So you ain't smelling pretty no matter how you slice it.

	25-06-2004 21:40									#54
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quote: No one pointed to the killing our government was doing in Yugoslavia at the very moment those kids were running around Columbine.

I doubt they even knew where Yugoslavia was.

	25-06-2004 21:43									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Verto I doubt they even knew where Yugoslavia was.

Okay, apparently it was too subtle for you.

So do you think it was Marilyn Manson who inspired those kids to go killing? Or was it playing Doom and where baclk trenchcoats?

If you think Moore was trying to establish a direct correlation between Lockheed and Columbine, you aren't as clever as I give you credit for.



BTW, the year, Yugoslavia was on the news for at least six months, seeing as we were bombing it!

	25-06-2004 21:45									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Either that, or you have blatantly misrepresented what you've seen in the movie to present a false notion that Moore somehow lied about Lockheed Martin, which he didn't, and also a clear misrepresentation of what Moore was saying in the film. So you ain't smelling pretty no matter how you slice it.

I just don't accept the idea that, because Lockheed made missiles in the 50s-80s, and because they help put satellites(that do direct missiles),

Moore: "So you don't think our kids say to themselves, well gee, dad goes off to the factory every day and, you know, he built missiles. These were weapons of mass destruction. What's the difference between that mass destruction and the mass destruction over at Columbine High School?"

Rockets that put military satellites into space, are not missils, nor are they weapons of mass destruction.

Satellites that are used to direct cruise missiles are not weapons of mass destruction.

Unless Moore meant to say, "well gee, dad goees off to the factory every and, you know, he built missiles 20 years ago before I was born.

	25-06-2004 21:46									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Verto quote: No one pointed to the killing our government was doing in Yugoslavia at the very moment those kids were running around Columbine. I doubt they even knew where Yugoslavia was.

Man, you really don't have a clue what either Moore or chegitz were saying.

Take a breather, read the post slooooowly and keep it all in context.

	25-06-2004 21:47									#58
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quote: I wonder if you have been reading the thread Imran

Yeah, I did. I actually did see that part with Moore and Lockheed-Martin and I agree with Verto's take. I don't think he was referring to nukes in particular, but I think MM was trying to link of L-M making weapons with Columbine in some very wierd way.

	25-06-2004 21:48									#59
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by Verto I doubt they even knew where Yugoslavia was. Okay, apparently it was too subtle for you. So do you think it was Marilyn Manson who inpired those kids to go killing? Or was it playing Doom and where baclk trenchcoats?

I refuse to blame Marilyn Manson, or DOOM, for their actions. I would say it is far more likely that they started listening to Manson, and dressing in trench coats, etc in the first place because of things that were happening to them at school.

And on a side note, one of the parts in BfC that actually stood out was when he was interviewing Manson, and asked what he would say to them, if he could. And Manson replied along the lines of "I wouldn't say anything. I would just listen to what they had to say."

	25-06-2004 21:50									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I wonder if you have been reading the thread Imran I think MM was trying to link of L-M making weapons with Columbine in some very wierd way.

He was deliberately trying to make an absurd point, in order to point out the absurdity of blaming a goth rocker or a video game. He was at the same time pointing out that we are a violent and warlike society, and that a culture of violence (for which Lockheed is the representitive) is going to breed violence in its children.

But he never makes clear where the culture of violence comes from. He goes through and trashes the myths of the right and the left as to why we have so much violence. I did not come away from that movie thinking that Moore had an answer other than we should treat each other with dignity and respect.