25-06-2004 21:50									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Man, you really don't have a clue what either Moore or chegitz were saying. Take a breather, read the post slooooowly and keep it all in context.

I understand what he meant. But it is hard to be influenced by an event when they probably didn't even know it was going on. But it could be argued other wars, like WW2 or Vietnam, could have had an effect on them.

	25-06-2004 21:54									#62
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Verto, how could anyone not know that we were at war? Do you think there are people who don't know we've invaded Iraq?

	25-06-2004 21:55									#63
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quote: He was at the same time pointing out that we are a violent and warlike society, and that a culture of violence (for which Lockheed is the representitive) is going to breed violence in its children.

America's Army

	25-06-2004 21:58									#64
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Verto, how could anyone not know that we were at war? Do you think there are people who don't know we've invaded Iraq?

Simple cluelessness. I do believe it is possible. I knew people who didn't know we had gone into Iraq for several months after it occurred. And Iraq has been extremely publicized.

EDIT: But I will admit this is stretching it. I still doubt it affected them at all, though.

	25-06-2004 22:04									#65
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quote: He was deliberately trying to make an absurd point, in order to point out the absurdity of blaming a goth rocker or a video game. He was at the same time pointing out that we are a violent and warlike society, and that a culture of violence (for which Lockheed is the representitive) is going to breed violence in its children.

So he was trying to make an absurd point and say L-M is somewhat responsible at the same time . I'm not exactly sure L-M is the representative for a 'culture' of violence. I wonder if Moore will ever go and **** on Hollywood... nah, that's where the liberal live.

	25-06-2004 22:11									#66
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara But he never makes clear where the culture of violence comes from. He goes through and trashes the myths of the right and the left as to why we have so much violence. I did not come away from that movie thinking that Moore had an answer other than we should treat each other with dignity and respect.

It's true, he doesn't really seem to have any kind of central statement in that movie.

	25-06-2004 23:25									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui So he was trying to make an absurd point and say L-M is somewhat responsible at the same time . I'm not exactly sure L-M is the representative for a 'culture' of violence. I wonder if Moore will ever go and **** on Hollywood... nah, that's where the liberal live.

The "point" about Lockheed Martin as I saw it was this: Lokheed Martin is the main employer in this part of Colorado, and the main business of it is the business of war. Now, ***** all you want about Hollywood, but while hollywood my show pretend death, it is LM and "the military-industrial complex" that makes the instruments of REAL death.

It is a teneous point, but if anything, just as valid, if not more valid than the oft made "liberal media" connection you are so inelequently restating. He is at most presenting a possible alternative viewpoint. As such, it can't possibly be seen as a "lie", since it isn't anything but another narrative to counter the anti-hollywood one.

	25-06-2004 23:27									#68
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Why would I pay to watch a movie and enrich someone that I despise?

	25-06-2004 23:43									#69
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the problem with people *****ing about the truth of michael moore is they dont want truth from their side...

its always "look at what the other guy is doing but not me". moore does it as a career, but hes entertaining and harmless about it. people running the country arent.

	25-06-2004 23:48									#70
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I'm curious. How big was the theater you went to and how full was it?

	25-06-2004 23:51									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Verto For the umpteenthtime, I have seen BfC. So, speaking of libel.

My apologies. I mistook some of Giancarlo's rantings about the latest movie as being yours.

	25-06-2004 23:54									#72
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zing!

	26-06-2004 02:10									#73
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I saw it in a packed theatre downtown. Easily Moore's best film. After reading some of the criticisms of it I can see that the right don't have much. For example, complaining about his ambushing congressmen without making it clear that the whole exercise takes place after we have just seen a woman howl her guts out over her dead son.

Anyway, the movie doesn't say much that is new. What it does do is make it clear, in a way anyone could understand, how thoroughly the political right have been pwned over every single argument to do with the war. Hence the bluster and misrepresentation in the place of any substantive criticism.

In a clear indication that the movie must be on the ball, that corpulent fool Christopher Hitchens is its most vocal critic – the same Hitchens who claimed that "Mother Theresa is evil" and "Bill Clinton is a rapist".

PS. There's a horrible sequence of an official Saudi public beheading. Of course the Saudis are our eternal allies in the struggle against people who commit such barbaric acts.

	26-06-2004 02:11									#74
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I wish the movie had dealt in more detail with the question of how Bush was able to play so many apparently rational people for saps.

	26-06-2004 02:13									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I wish the movie had dealt in more detail with the question of how Bush was able to play so many apparently rational people for saps.

one word . . . . .


propaganda

	26-06-2004 02:38									#76
	Re: Re: Re: So, have YOU seen "Fahrenheit 9/11"? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Sava proper context? in the golf scene where Bush mocks the terrorism issue... what other context could this have been in?

My point is that Moore deliberately uses this scene with edits to make Bush look bad on terrorism. Bush is not indifferent to terrorism, but showing a scene where a reporter asks him about terrorism and he says "I want to get back to my golf swing" will give that impression.

quote: you should go see it diplomat... Joe Scarborough urged all his viewers to see it... that way we can have a debate about it!

Are you sure? What if it makes me go crazy and I go on a rampage killing liberals?

	26-06-2004 02:44									#77
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You can't rant on about it unless you've actually seen it.

All the complaints I have heard so far ignore the context of the movie. There isn't much that hasn't been said before in it – all Moore does is collect it and piece it together in an aesthetically pleasing way. It's actually quite a patriotic film – in the sections where US soldiers are doing bad things Moore doesn't blame them, rather he adopts the "war is hell" position. Moreover the movie ends by praising those who serve, but stating that those whom they serve have an obligation never to put them in harm's way unless absolutely necessary. Given that it is now a proven fact that the war was not necessary, that is all that needs to be said to condemn Bush (who I still think will win in November).

	26-06-2004 03:24									#78
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#1: Let's give Verto a little credit here, folks. At the very least, he is not making the usual BfC attacks, that the film is "anti-gun" and blames everything on the NRA. Verto was obviously paying attention when Moore took care to show that Canada has the same rate of firearm ownership, but a far lower rate of homicide. It is rather unsporting of us to assume that he didn't pay attention to the rest of the film.

#2: I'm going to see the new film tomorrow. Apparently, shows are already sold out through tonight and tomorrow; lucky I got the ticket early. I had all but written off Ohio as going Red again in November; now, I'm not so sure.

	26-06-2004 03:27									#79
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I couldn't believe how packed the theatre was. The only other time I've seen something like this was for Fellowship of the Ring.

	26-06-2004 03:27									#80
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quote: I wish the movie had dealt in more detail with the question of how Bush was able to play so many apparently rational people for saps.

They voted for him

	26-06-2004 03:36									#81
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One can forgive them for voting for him as it wasn't evident that he'd be quite this bad.

I'm surprised more aren't angry at being made saps.

	26-06-2004 03:56									#82
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I think most of them know deep down that they were being lied to, but since they voted for him, couldn't bring themselves to accept how big a blunder that was.

	26-06-2004 04:19									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon One can forgive them for voting for him as it wasn't evident that he'd be quite this bad. I'm surprised more aren't angry at being made saps.

Because the right has scared moderates and some liberals from making any bad statements of the president. They've convinced people that if you say any bad words about Bush during war time you are unpatriotic or traitorous. Even some on this board tried that.

Slowly, however, that is turning around. I hope it turns enough by November 11th.

	26-06-2004 04:57									#84
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My review:

Fahrenheit 9/11 is an invigorating, emotional experience - less Moore-focused and more issue-focused than his previous effort, Bowling For Columbine. This makes it more of a return to excellence - he has not made a film of this quality since Roger and Me.

It isn't nearly as funny as Bowling For Columbine, but that seems appropriate. What humor there is seems to be of a much more gallows-humor - the sort of dark humor that makes you laugh and feel strangely guilty all at once.

I thought it was interesting to note the way Fahrenheit 9/11 was structured and framed. It begins with us exploring the corridors of power, takes a long and hard look then at the ramifications of power, and then returns to those same corridors and places them in a new context. Bush simply stating that he doesn't know what it feels like to lose a son isn't that powerful by itself, but when we see it after the trials of a mother who actually has lost a son, and wonder what her son's death was for, Bush becomes a figure of revulsion. It's old fashioned contextual movie manipulation, but I'll be damned if it's not well-executed.

The beginning may be a bit too stretched, and Moore's inferences concerning connections occasionally come off a bit forced, but this ends with quite, QUITE shocking footage of the war. A look at the war that we haven't seen in the news since, oh, say, Vietnam?

All in all, excellent. This is a film that forces one to read between the lines and also examine the masks that politicians wear, while at the same time tearing those masks down.

	26-06-2004 05:28									#85
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As muich as I dislike, I must agree with Imran and Verto (well, I'm drunk, it may help to remove inhibitions). Moore doesn't say wrong things directly, but the way he directs his documentaries imply it.
The same way the Bushies subtly implied Saddam was responsible with Sept. 11 without ever actually saying it (don't forget, most Americans believed this outrageous claim at some point).

I don't know if Moore is bullet-proof about the truth in his movies, but I trust him to be smart enough to use very few clear-cut lies. What he uses, howeveer, are half-lies (i.e. "forgetting" to give facts ruining his presentation), and using the feelings of the audience to imply something he doesn't expressly voice.

Don't get me wrong: I'm damn glad there is somebody to push the US to the left, since the US is such an outrageously far-right country. However, his methods are not something the 'refined' leftists (read: the leftist who came there because they really thought about the issues) should ocndone.

	26-06-2004 05:49									#86
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Short and sweet:
Great movie.

Bit longer:
I don't much care for Moore, but this movie wasn't about him. There wasn't much new in it that I didn't already know, but it was packaged in a way that was respectfully humorous (well...maybe not for Bush & Associates, Inc.) where appropriate. Loved the Bonanza tie-in and using the "They have a saying in Tennessee..." gem as the final scene. The theater erupted with laughter, groans, and applause with that.

Outside theater #9, quite a line was forming for the 5pm showing...

	26-06-2004 08:31									#87
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This movie was absolutely excellent. Moore presents the facts and the horrifying truth about war, 9-11, Bush and the Saudis. I cried at three different parts, and at the end I wiped tears. The theatre erupted in applause at the end of the movie... there were lines for the next show as we left.

This movie should be required viewing for every man, woman, and child in America. ESPECIALLY for Bush supporters or Iraq war supporters. They need to sit and look at the images of this war. They need to see the amputee "wounded" soldiers who are the forgotten casualties. They need to see the bodies of the innocent Iraqi children murdered by the US military. There's no such thing as collateral damage. This is murder, plain and simple. Bush is a war criminal. And if you don't see the light after watching this movie, you need your ****ing head examined. And if you still support the war in Iraq or support Bush after seeing this movie, may God have mercy on your soul, because anyone who supports such evil will surely burn in hell. I hope with all my heart there is a God. I hope the poor Iraqi women crying for Allah are heard and answered.

James Baker, the Bushes, Cheney, Rummy, the Carlyle group, those ****ing murdering Saudi mother****ers... they all deserve to die (after due process of course). The blood is on their hands. Their money is soaked with the blood of the innocent... and if there is a God, they will surely pay in the next world for the evil atrocities and war crimes they are responsible for.

Michael Moore... thank you. May God bless you. You are a hero and a patriot.

And shame on the Democrats... shame on them for allowing this to happen. Shame on them for not questioning our "great leader" when we needed it most. Shame on the Democratic Senators who did not support the Congressional Black Caucus after the 2000 election (explained in the beginning of the movie). I may forgive the Democratic Party for allowing Bush to commit atrocities in America's name. I don't hate America. I hate the evil, wicked men who have conspired to create war in order to fuel their lust for money. I hate the men who have hijacked my government for their evil purposes.

There is little room for grey in this matter. It's a pure question of good and evil. Support for Bush or support for war in Iraq is support of evil. And only an ignorant fool or a wicked soul would support such things.

That is all.

God Bless America (and everybody else)

	26-06-2004 08:47									#88
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I saw it twice today. As I was leaving, a group of my former coworkers was walking in, so I turned around and went back with them.

Without a doubt, this is one of the most powerful movies I've ever seen. It is easily his best work ever. I cried several times during the movie.

All I can say is, just go see it. If you don't want to give Moore money, see it as a matinee, or buy a ticket to another movie and sneak in. Just go see it.

spoiler(highlight to read): The saddest part of the movie is when the soldier with permanent nerve damage talks about how he's gonna become an organizer for the Democratic Party after having been a Republican his whole life, when the movie explained how the Democrats betrayed their constituants early in the Bush coup. In my theater, people clapped and cheered at that part, having apparently forgotten the cowardace the Democrats displayed towards the Republicans.

	26-06-2004 09:01									#89
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Brittney comes out looking like a total idiot.

	26-06-2004 09:11									#90
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The fits of laughter in my theater when she appeared on-screen, in all her gum-smacking glory, can attest to that Che.