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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
Yeah, martial law. Sometimes I think I'm dyslexic. 
Yes, obviously security is a huge concern. That's what I meant by the desperation comment. But I don't think the situation is extreme enough to warrant martial law, and I don't think most Iraqis buy the idea (which is why the INA is still only a party of exiles).
And I don't trust Allawi in the least. And would not trust him with a police state. Seems like nothing more than a moderate Saddam.
Ok, i think we have the disconnect. Martial law != police state. There are lots of measure that could be implemented as martial law, and they could be implemented in limited areas. I dont see anyone suggesting a "police state"
quote:
Come now, Allawi left the Baath decades ago, and was almost killed by the Baath. Hes no more an ideological compatriot of Syria than Yeltsin was an ideological compatriot of Castro. |
There's hardly a single conception of the Ba'ath, and certainly paranoia is an omnipresent feature in Saddam's Ba'ath. Anyways, his party is connected to other Ba'athist parties, and is built from Ba'athists, especially from the army. And he's been calling for a police state for a while.
LOTM Allawis party is built from men who LEFT the Baathists. Who were plotting to overthrow the Baathists. Look, anyone who held a high position in the army or govt was a member of the Baath. You didnt have a choice. It was look being a member of the CPSU. It didnt necessarily mean real ideological commitment.
I wasn't aware that a plan has been publicly released yet.
LOTM - no, i think several ideas are being tossed around.
He also seems to be pretty weary about delays and obstructions to elections.
LOTM - yup, and i dont expect that to change
Saying what is or isn't likely is absurd, given that he's just taken over the country. Just throwing out a possibility. |
LOTM - Hes got a coalition government, with Jaafari as VP, a Kurd as Deputy PM for security etc. I dont see the political alignment there for Allawi to pull off a coup and become leader for life, as you seem to imply. Nothing is impossible, but some things are more likely than other things. We can talk here in the abstract about "Iraqi strongmen" but id wait till I see that developing on the ground in Iraq.
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Geronimo
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st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:37
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didn't quite finish this thread yet, but FYI relevant to the earlier discussion of the werewolf activities in occupied Germany is a 2 hour program on the history channel tonight starting at 12 am eastern (or starting the "morning" of june 29 if you wanted to be anally technical). The program is titled "Nazi Guerrillas". I saw the tail end of it on the earlier broadcast and it ended with compare/contrast with the current gulf war which seemed to suggest a bias somewhat like that of Gepap's thinking but I'll have to tape it, see it myself and then check out it's sources before I judge it completely.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:37
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a nice article about the claims of how this insurgency is like what went on in germany:
http://hnn.us/articles/1655.html
another one:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2087768/
and quote:
quote:
It's hard to understand exactly what Rumsfeld was saying, but if he meant that the Nazi resisters killed Americans after the surrender, this would be news. According to America's Role in Nation-Building: From Germany to Iraq, a new study by former Ambassador James Dobbins, who had a lead role in the Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, and Kosovo reconstruction efforts, and a team of RAND Corporation researchers, the total number of post-conflict American combat casualties in Germany—and Japan, Haiti, and the two Balkan cases—was zero. |
and more:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2089987/
and
http://educate-yourself.org/cn/Rice...ed17jan04.shtml
and
http://www.aicgs.org/c/livingston011004.shtml
AND an interesitng net debate on the documentary first shonw by the History channel in May that mentions the slate articles mentioned AND what MM posted, hich by the way seems to be one of only 2 sources that claim much of a resistance, as opposed to say the official US army history.
http://www.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultim...ubb=print_topic;f=36;t=000534
and an interview with one of the talking heads in the documentary:
http://www.urhome.umd.edu/newsdesk/...3&ArticleID=849
Last edited by GePap on 29-06-2004 at 07:49
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MrFun
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of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln
Ever heard the expression "experience is the best teacher"? I am a Vietnam vet. I know what it is like to be second guessed by people who don't have the slightest idea what they are talking about. And I know the damage it does to moral when people constantly pick at the mistakes and refuse to see any success. The left does not want success in Iraq unless it is accomplished by a Democrat. They glory in failure as long as Bush is in charge. Meanwhile brave men die trying to help the people and the left continues to descourage them in their efforts. Also, I am not talking about specific people but the nitpicking left in general. Why not have some patience and see if the efforts actually pay off. Nothing will change overnight. |
Well, if we're talking about disrespect for the soldiers over in Iraq, I sure hope you denounced that public dinner appearance by President Bush when he made distasteful jokes about our war effort in Iraq.
And while we're talking about the disrespect for soldiers in Iraq, I sure hope that you are angry with President Bush AND candidate Kerry for using the efforts of American soldiers in Iraq for their own political campaigns.
And while we're talking about disrespect for soldiers in Iraq, I am hoping that you were angry the way Republicans tried to tar and villify Kerry and McCain in order to try to undermine the respect they have as Vietnam War veterans.
While we're talking about disrespect for soldiers in Iraq, I will feel better if you're denouncing the soldiers who have committed war crimes over in Iraq, thus undermining the patriotic, brave duty of the majority of our other soldiers who are doing the best job that they can do.
Let's face it -- disrespect towards our soldiers is not dependent on what political ideology you adhere to, or what political party you adhere to.
And as far as any extreme, worshipful bias I have for Democrats -- there are past Democratic presidents whose policies I have detested (Clinton being last one).
Anything else you want to share? 
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Giancarlo
I was shocked that nobody got to this before... |
.... and I'm shocked to find gambling going on here in "Rick's American Cafe"!
No one really expects the interim government to succeed, or even to survive for very long. The gendarms will be by presently to close the place down right after the captain collects his winnings.
It's the law of FUBAR.
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:37
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quote:
Ok, i think we have the disconnect. Martial law != police state. There are lots of measure that could be implemented as martial law, and they could be implemented in limited areas. I dont see anyone suggesting a "police state" |
They're both extraordinary restrictions of civil liberties. The main difference that is that martial law has a temporary connotation (and of course a martial connotation), but I'm not interested in a semantics debate.
quote:
LOTM Allawis party is built from men who LEFT the Baathists. Who were plotting to overthrow the Baathists. Look, anyone who held a high position in the army or govt was a member of the Baath. You didnt have a choice. It was look being a member of the CPSU. It didnt necessarily mean real ideological commitment. |
Funny how they didn't join the INC or SCIRI or the ICP or the dozens of other exile groups. Why the INA? If there's no ideological connection between these ex-Ba'athist military officers, why would they flock to the INA? And why would everyone else go to the other parties? And again, if you look at the sorts of connections the INA has with other Arab parties, the ones with Ba'athist parties are the strongest. Why has Allawi and the INA been pushing for a police state ever since the occupation started?
And remember, Saddam organized a coup against the former Ba'ath leadership of Iraq. So does that make Saddam a non-Ba'athist, or the previous regime non-Ba'athist?
I'm not suggesting that every ex-Ba'athist has a Ba'athist ideology, merely that if you've got a party that's made up of ex-Ba'athist officers, that has connections with other Ba'athist parties, that has been advocating a very strong security apparatus with secret police and the works, well, if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck...
quote:
Hes got a coalition government, with Jaafari as VP, a Kurd as Deputy PM for security etc. I dont see the political alignment there for Allawi to pull off a coup and become leader for life, as you seem to imply. |
All the more reason for Allawi to well, assert himself. And Allawi has his own man in interior.
And he need not political allignment (as the right loves to point out in the Iraq-al-Qaeda threads), just temporary mutual self-interest. If a delay in elections could allow the Kurds to not have their sovereignty taken away by the likely Shia gov't, perhaps they'd be willing to make a temporary alliance. Anyways, it's all speculation. I'm just saying, there's no way in hell I'm going to trust this man.
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29-06-2004 02:24
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