07-07-2004 21:08									#121
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quote: That's just stupid.

No, it's freedom of speech. Defamation is saying untrue things about a defined organization or a person, which will result in some financial or severe reputational harm (unless it is done for parody). We tolerate that minor restriction on free speech for the specific. However, for statements made against some sort of birth-characteristic group or an entire religion in general, we allow people to have their freedom of speech... mostly because it is very difficult to measure the harm in that case, but also because we want to curtail the restrictions on speech. We will allow remedy for the lies about the specific, but not those about the general. Freedom of speech is the most important right we have. Any restrictions on it should be of the most narrow.

Otherwise, saying something like Muslims in general don't care when terrorists blow up Israelis (with the implication, of course, that they implicitly support it) could be considered 'defamation'. I'm sure you wouldn't like that.

	07-07-2004 21:26									#122
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Hmm, the guy seems to have said that homosexuals are a tumour; the way that tumours are generally treated is to remove them from the body, to kill them. Whilst not a direct threat, I think that it is going over the legal line to call them something that is accepted to be deserving of death.

	07-07-2004 21:30									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Flinx I am quite sure that this did not appear in the original text. This is a 20th centaury concept.

BK uses the New International Version, not the King James version.

	07-07-2004 21:32									#124
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And the NIV, as we've gone over time and time again, is crap. Mainstream theologians have decried its textual manipulations and blatant editing of the supposed sacred text it represents. The use of the word "homosexual" it but a tiny example.

	07-07-2004 21:42									#125
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If any book deserves burning, it's the Bible. Then we could get back to real classical texts.

	07-07-2004 22:09									#126
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quote: Hmm, the guy seems to have said that homosexuals are a tumour; the way that tumours are generally treated is to remove them from the body, to kill them. Whilst not a direct threat, I think that it is going over the legal line to call them something that is accepted to be deserving of death.

I think that's kind of a stretch: to say that since he calls them a tumor, that means he wants people to kill them. I don't think calling someone a tumor is threatening to kill them (ie, it's valid speech).

	07-07-2004 22:13									#127
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quote: I thought we were all doomed to sin.

Yes, but that doesn't mean we should just ignore sin.

	07-07-2004 22:16									#128
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quote: Feel free to post your statistics on Swedish mullahs found preaching anti-Jewish hatred who haven't been prosecuted.

Impossible, since if they have not been prosecuted, how would we know what they are preaching?

I ask again, how many Swedish mullahs have been prosecuted for preaching hatred against Jewish people.

quote: The reason for a double standard is of course that modern Christians dress so badly, and so many gabble on about sin whilst ignoring their own conspicuous brand of sanctimony.

As opposed to the pride activists, I suppose, who preach tolerance, except for those to whom they disagee.

	07-07-2004 22:18									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon If any book deserves burning, it's the Bible. Then we could get back to real classical texts.

Whereas, if anyone said the Quran deserved to be burned, they would be a homophobe who needed to stop hating the peaceful Muslim religion.

	07-07-2004 22:19									#130
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quote: Missionary work in Africa, with H.I.V. orphans. Perhaps some good works rather than harsh words might serve Pastor Fingerwag well.

I think he would find that sufficient punishment, helping others who need help.

You should submit this to the judge in Sweden, and test the true character of the Swedish judicial system.

	07-07-2004 22:21									#131
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quote: Is there another article you're referring to or is this a general inquiry?

General inquiry. I'm curious as to the application of this hate crime law.

	07-07-2004 22:23									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I think that's kind of a stretch: to say that since he calls them a tumor, that means he wants people to kill them. I don't think calling someone a tumor is threatening to kill them (ie, it's valid speech).

I agree, it is a bit of a stretch. A regular member of the public calling a group of people tumours should obviously never be prosecuted- but a man of some influence doing it in the middle of a sermon about the evils of homosexuality, that's another matter. I think by doing so he is implying that actions should be taken by his congregation to halt the "tumour" that infests society. After all, you don't just ignore cancer.

	07-07-2004 22:25									#133
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quote: '7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

For those outside the church. My statement was directed at Pekka, who is inside.

However, you are correct. It is difficult for those outside the church to see things the way that the church sees things. This is why Christ is the one to whom you will be held accountable, rather than to the members of his church.

If you believe you can hold your head high, then I have nothing more to say to you, Molly. Time will tell.

	07-07-2004 22:27									#134
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quote: You see, the whole point of Romans 1 was not to rally ther faithful against gays, but to heal a rift between two segments of the Roman congregation. In the future please read the whole section from which you're ripping a biblical quote to ensure that you preserve the meaning within the true context.

True. No one sin is any worse than another.

However, I still can say that homosexuality is a sin.

	07-07-2004 22:31									#135
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quote: a man of some influence doing it in the middle of a sermon about the evils of homosexuality, that's another matter. I think by doing so he is implying that actions should be taken by his congregation to halt the "tumour" that infests society.

I'd even think that would be a stretch. Just because someone has influence doesn't mean he should have less freedoms. Saying someone is a tumor doesn't mean that he wants them removed forceably, by violence.

	07-07-2004 22:32									#136
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France

	07-07-2004 22:37									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I'd even think that would be a stretch. Just because someone has influence doesn't mean he should have less freedoms. Saying someone is a tumor doesn't mean that he wants them removed forceably, by violence.

No, but when you tell a bunch of people after being given a platform, it becomes a possibility that people might see it that way. I'll bet that tyrants throughout history have used less harsh laguage to inflame populations against certain groups. Someone given a platform must use it responsibility; perhaps prosecution is not justified (As I've agreed, it is a stretch), but I certainly don't think any church should allow such sermons to be made in their name.

I still think saying someone is a tumour is akin to saying they should be removed (Not necessarily by violence).

	07-07-2004 22:39									#138
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quote: Arrest me and throw away the key

Can We?, really!

	07-07-2004 22:56									#139
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quote: Originally posted by GePap quote: Arrest me and throw away the key Can We?, really!

I was JUST ABOUT TO MAKE THIS JOKE!

	07-07-2004 22:59									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Whereas, if anyone said the Quran deserved to be burned, they would be a homophobe who needed to stop hating the peaceful Muslim religion.

Nope. That one can go too.

The Upanishads are worth keeping.

	07-07-2004 23:06									#141
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quote: I certainly don't think any church should allow such sermons to be made in their name.

I don't disagree. Perhaps we are arguing when we share similar beliefs here. I don't condone it, but I think they should be allowed to say it without fear of being thrown in jail for their beliefs.

	07-07-2004 23:16									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I ask again, how many Swedish mullahs have been prosecuted for preaching hatred against Jewish people.

How many Klingon ambassadors have been prosecuted for spying on U.S. military secrets?

None? Oh, it must be a conspiracy to protect those spying Klingons.

Not to say Swedish mullahs don't exist, but you're asking a meaningless question that doesn't get to the fact.

Why not find some examples of Swedish mullahs who have said such things as this pastor did who have not been prosecuted and then ask, why not? Because if the answer to your question it, "none," it's irrelevant if there haven't been Swedish mullahs doing such things so that they could be charged, now isn't it?

	07-07-2004 23:28									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon If any book deserves burning, it's the Bible. Then we could get back to real classical texts.

I give this anti-Christian troll a 2.3/10

	08-07-2004 00:02									#144
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Not a troll.

	08-07-2004 00:12									#145
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He couldn't have been serious about book-burning -- that is the realm for unsophisicated bigots who can't allow for books that they disagree with.

	08-07-2004 00:15									#146
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As I said, it was not a troll.

	08-07-2004 00:15									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I certainly don't think any church should allow such sermons to be made in their name. I don't disagree. Perhaps we are arguing when we share similar beliefs here. I don't condone it, but I think they should be allowed to say it without fear of being thrown in jail for their beliefs.

Bah. People also have the right to say that which would make them fear that such actions would land them in jail!

	08-07-2004 00:19									#148
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun He couldn't have been serious about book-burning -- that is the realm for unsophisicated bigots who can't allow for books that they disagree with.

Or someone in desperate need of heat. The Bible would certainly work better than most to keep you warm, or cook your food! It's the cherry log to the pine splinters most books comprise.

(plus if it's true, you'll be much more likely to be warm in the afterlife as well!)

	08-07-2004 00:51									#149
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Why the hell is Ben Kenobi so OBSESSED with bothering gays, doesn't he have anything better to do, to condemn, like those guys choping people's heads off in the middle east.

Last time I checked even under some subjective christian discipline murder is worse then homosexuality....

Ben can't you live and let live, Jesus was teaching that.... why not listen to what he said, instead of what other people said he said... geez....?

Ben, do you condemn hindu's, muslims, wiccans to the same degree?

	08-07-2004 00:59									#150
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BK: Why do you hate sin so much?