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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:34
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Ben - quote:
I disagree with you.
Consider this. If you break something that is not your property, have you not trespassed against the owner of that property? |
Yes, you have trespassed.
quote:
Ergo, if by my earlier argument that you are not your own, then all the sins you commit against your own body constitute a trespass against the true owner. |
But Jesus defined defilement and that definition requires thoughts of wickedness about others, e.g., the thought of committing murder even if it isn't acted upon. Second, you're assuming we don't own ourselves and that assumption is based on what someone else may have said in the Bible, i.e., "the Bible says so". God gave us free will, you've said that yourself, so we do own ourselves - that's why we have free will.
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And how is that the equivalent of live and let live? This is a command to do good to others because you would want good to be done to you. |
That's live and let live, do to others what you don't want done to you would be a violation of live and let live.
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Live and let live cannot promote people to be kind to each other, all it can do is promote indifference to the plight of others. |
You're putting a spin on that, it doesn't mean indifference. It means allowing people to make their own decisions about how to live their lives.
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Christianity has greater concern for people than a live and let live philosophy. |
Yes, burned quite a few people to save their souls.  But even Jesus was indifferent to some people, he wasn't running around healing everyone he could. He often ignored people in need...
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:34
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quote:
But Jesus defined defilement and that definition requires thoughts of wickedness about others, e.g., the thought of committing murder even if it isn't acted upon.
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Ask yourself this.
Jesus says in his Sermon on the Mount, that it is sinful to lust after a woman, even if you did not touch her in any way.
How then, if one only sins through actions, can the lust be considered sin? There must be something else involved. Sin must be more than merely our actions.
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God gave us free will, you've said that yourself, so we do own ourselves - that's why we have free will.
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Our free will is not our body, the two are distinct from each other. We can still sin against our bodies, yet we also have free will.
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It means allowing people to make their own decisions about how to live their lives.
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Yeah, but sometimes people need help, and you can't get that from a philosophy that preaches nonintervention above all else.
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But even Jesus was indifferent to some people, he wasn't running around healing everyone he could. He often ignored people in need...
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Examples would be helpful.
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you're assuming homosexuality = defilement and that doesn't follow from how Jesus defined defilement.
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Very right, from what we have dealt with so far from the Sermon on the Mount. But you have left something out.
How did Jesus say we are to use our sexual desires? What would be the proper expression of them? Defilement then could be defined as anything outside of this picture.
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you're still using the "Bible says so" argument...
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And you're still using a "Jesus said so" argument. So why do you complain?
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:34
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quote:
Under what grounds do you believe murder to be immoral? |
Because it takes from the victim what belongs to the victim - their life. It's the most extreme form of theft...
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Your question is not, "Is homosexuality wrong." but rather, "Is homosexuality sin?"
Sin implies many things. First of all, Scripture can act as proof to what Christianity defines as sinful.
If you wish to believe that homosexuality is not sinful, that is one thing, but then you would then be going against what Christians believe. |
You aren't answering my question - why? Use logic, not "the Bible says so" or "that's what we believe". You can't even quote Jesus but claim Christians believe or should believe homosexuality is a sin. As for what I want to believe, I'm open-minded on the issue of how immorality is defined, but I need logic to sway me...
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:34
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quote:
Ask yourself this.
Jesus says in his Sermon on the Mount, that it is sinful to lust after a woman, even if you did not touch her in any way.
How then, if one only sins through actions, can the lust be considered sin? There must be something else involved. Sin must be more than merely our actions. |
I already said defilement involves the thoughts of doing evil that precede doing acts of evil. And I believe that was Jesus equating adultery with thoughts of adultery, i.e., a violation of the marriage agreement.
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Our free will is not our body, the two are distinct from each other. We can still sin against our bodies, yet we also have free will. |
And God gave us free will, therefore if we choose to sin against our bodies, we are exercising what God gave us. So how is homosexuality a sin against one's body?
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Yeah, but sometimes people need help, and you can't get that from a philosophy that preaches nonintervention above all else. |
Live and let live doesn't mean indifference nor does it mean refraining from helping others in need of help. It just means you can't force yourself on those who don't want your help.
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Examples would be helpful. |
The young wealthy man who wouldn't give up his possessions, Jesus "lived and let live". He let him make up his own mind... Jesus told his followers to walk the land preaching the message, but if people didn't want to hear them, they were to go on to the next town. When Jesus was walking around preaching his message, he wasn't healing people all the time even though there were undoubtedly plenty around who needed help.
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Very right, from what we have dealt with so far from the Sermon on the Mount. But you have left something out.
How did Jesus say we are to use our sexual desires? What would be the proper expression of them? Defilement then could be defined as anything outside of this picture. |
Perhaps, we'd need those parameters first. So how does homosexuality violate those parameters?
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And you're still using a "Jesus said so" argument. So why do you complain? |
Since you seem intent on using the "Bible says so" argument, it helps to see if that argument is even valid.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:34
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quote:
I already said defilement involves the thoughts of doing evil that precede doing acts of evil. And I believe that was Jesus equating adultery with thoughts of adultery, i.e., a violation of the marriage agreement.
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That's the point I was looking for. A violation of the marriage agreement.
Would you agree with me that the only legitimate sexual expression in Christianity is through marriage? This brings us back to this point of defilement. Every thing outside of marriage would then defile the body.
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And God gave us free will, therefore if we choose to sin against our bodies, we are exercising what God gave us. So how is homosexuality a sin against one's body?
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The same way as any other form of sin, with respect to our free will.
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It just means you can't force yourself on those who don't want your help.
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So, the temple sellers were hardly asking for Christ's help. I still don't see him advocating a live and let live philosophy.
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The young wealthy man who wouldn't give up his possessions, Jesus "lived and let live". He let him make up his own mind...
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Fair enough. However, Christ challenged his beliefs about God in that one passage, and about his own desires. Remember the list of commandments he gave to the wealthy man, which did he omit? 'Thou shalt not covet.'
Then you have to see his response. The man walked away because he loved his money more than he trusted God. This is why Christ says at the end, that what is impossible through men is possible with God.
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Jesus told his followers to walk the land preaching the message, but if people didn't want to hear them, they were to go on to the next town.
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Matthew 10:13-5
If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
Hardly a mellow approach.
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Perhaps, we'd need those parameters first. So how does homosexuality violate those parameters?
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Well, why are we of two genders? If we were meant to use our sexuality with others of the same sex, why does that approach bear no fruit?
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Since you seem intent on using the "Bible says so" argument, it helps to see if that argument is even valid. |
Granted, but it just makes it a little more difficult on some areas.
I'm not certain I can explain sins without some conception of God, and who he is.
Morally wrong is one thing, but sin has a few other presuppositions.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:34
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Now, for the Christian teaching on marriage, or at least Christ's affirmation of marriage, is here:
Matt 19:4-6
"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
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