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Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
And only Republicans believe that omissions are less blameworthy than acts.


Um, we've already told them everything they need to know. It's their own damn fault if they don't take our advice.

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  Old Post 11-07-2004 19:39
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
It seems to me irresponsible habits in a veritable hot zone of STDs is what is leading to deaths in this case.


Typical Republican attitude.

It's the same with crime. The problem with crime is the criminals, so any attempt to alleviate poverty to reduce the crime rate is wrong, despite the fact that increasing punishments does not deter crime. So according to Republicans it is better to put up with more crime than less.

Similarly in this case, people are being irresponsible, so we should lecture them to "be responsible" even though we know that won't work, and it certainly won't work as well as providing them with condoms. So the Republican attitude in this situation is obviously that more suffering is better than less.

Of course it would be better if people could control their sexual urges all the time, but in the real world they cannot. Hence, if we really want to minimize suffering, the Republican attitude must be dispensed with.

In fact, it ought to be completely dispensed with as it is obviously idiotic as is any principle which tells us it is better to have more suffering than less.

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  Old Post 11-07-2004 19:41
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quote:
Originally posted by cia
Um, note to self Last Conformist. Please list the world trade figures for any country in Africa and let me know how much the world economy is dragged down. Any issues with the world economy are due to the first world attempting to help Africa out of its death spiral.


The agoa runs a billion dollar trade surplus with the US, which will be wiped out when the quotas limiting how much China can dump on us are gone.

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  Old Post 11-07-2004 19:41
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The point of AIDS programs is not to lecture Africans on their ungodly habits, but to minimize the suffering caused by AIDS.

Of course the Bush administration doesn't care about the suffering caused by AIDS because they seem to think it is better to endorse a solution that is proven to be useless instead of doing what will actually minimize suffering.

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  Old Post 11-07-2004 20:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Typical Republican attitude.


You mean in fact it isn't the unprotected sex with multiple unsafe partners? It's the AIDS fairy?

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  Old Post 11-07-2004 20:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
How many people here, who aren't pathetic nerds who can't get a woman, would actually take seriously the idea that they should never have sex, or that they should have sex only while married?

Any subset of an empty set is gonna be size zero.

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  Old Post 11-07-2004 20:24
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I can see two reasonable stances here - either say that you don't care about Africans, and thenceforth shut up, or try and advance methods that actually work. Promoting fixes that demonstrably do not work is paternalistic feel-good-with-yourself idiocy.

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  Old Post 11-07-2004 21:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Kucinich
quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Typical Republican attitude.


You mean in fact it isn't the unprotected sex with multiple unsafe partners? It's the AIDS fairy?


No. What I mean is that people with your attitude will at best make no difference, and at worst increase suffering. You want to lecture Africans about abstinence when it won't work. Giving them condoms and promoting safe sex will.

As I said, those on the political right have the naive attitude that all that is required of them is to lecture Africans about the joys of abstinence. It's a thoroughly stupid and dangerous attitude.

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  Old Post 11-07-2004 21:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Last Conformist
I can see two reasonable stances here - either say that you don't care about Africans, and thenceforth shut up, or try and advance methods that actually work. Promoting fixes that demonstrably do not work is paternalistic feel-good-with-yourself idiocy.


:applauds:

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  Old Post 11-07-2004 21:31
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Agathon, try re-reading the article and do some research on the AIDS health situation in Africa for the past 20 years before you go on a boring anti-republican rant. Your bullshit just surpassed everyone elses in this thread by a post count over 2:1, at least have it pertain to something.

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  Old Post 11-07-2004 21:34
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Whatever... I've read it. I still don't see why abstinence lectures are going to work there when they haven't worked anywhere else.

Oh and at you accusing anyone of throwing around BS.

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  Old Post 11-07-2004 21:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Whatever... I've read it. I still don't see why abstinence lectures are going to work there when they haven't worked anywhere else.

Oh and at you accusing anyone of throwing around BS.


UGANDA

"The same meeting heard from Janet Museveni, wife of Ugandan President Yoweri Museveni, who initiated the ABC strategy which led to dramatic reductions in Uganda's Aids prevalence. She said: 'Giving young people condoms is tantamount to giving them a licence to be promiscuous; it leads to certain death.'"

Did you really read the article? At least I present arguments in my posts.

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  Old Post 11-07-2004 21:45
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Yeah right...

Giving young people condoms gives them the power to have safe sex. Telling people not to have sex is like telling them not to eat food they like, they are going to do it anyway.

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  Old Post 11-07-2004 21:47
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And why are all the experts criticising the ABC approach. It must be because they are perverts.

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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Yeah right...

Giving young people condoms gives them the power to have safe sex. Telling people not to have sex is like telling them not to eat food they like, they are going to do it anyway.


Again, I point to the first page of this thread and to actual bonafide facts. How's that SPAM coming?

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  Old Post 11-07-2004 21:56
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It is clear that Bush and co. are promoting solely the abstinence line of Aides prevention due to the influence on the religious right in America. The religious right's objections to the practices of safe sex are based solely on a moral (some would argue faux moral) ground, and when contrasted with a situation where millions of people are dying, these moral reasons should not have any part in US aides policy.
As to the abstinence arguement itself, it might work somewhat, but it in and of itself is not an answer, or not even part of an answer. To demonstrate its weakness, I bring forth as exhibit A my former high school. We were all told in health that abstinence is the key to avoiding unwanted pregnancies, and avoiding STDs. However, that did not prevent large amounts of people from going out and sexifying to their heart's content. Evidence points that this is also the case in Africa.
Therefore, requiring that Africans conform to our moral viewpoint as the only way to prevent them eventually dying of aides is a rather harsh policy. While safe sex is a misnomer, as it is not 100% safe, the number of people who would practice safe sex instead of unprotected sex is vastly larger than the number of people who would practice no sex rather than unprotected sex, and hence it is a better policy to pursue. While under no conditions should abstinence not be touted as a policy for aides containment, safe sex should always be a part of that policy. The Bush administration would do well to ignore or at reduce priority to religious groups, and pay greater attention to science.

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Because it is nothing like the whole story. As usual, you point out the "facts" that support your side of the argument. Of course the "fact" that everyone else condemns it is neither here nor here, they aren't from the US ergo they must be wrong or immoral or agents of Satan.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2004Jun28.html

You will see that the ABC approach is insufficient. What is needed are contraceptives specifically for women, to empower them. That sounds exactly like what we've been saying: abstinence on its own is insufficient.

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quote:
Beyond Slogans: Lessons From Uganda's ABC Experience

Between the late 1980s and mid-1990s, at a time when HIV/AIDS was well on its way toward ravaging Sub-Saharan Africa, Uganda achieved an extraordinary feat: It stopped the spread of HIV/AIDS in its tracks and saw the nation's rate of infection plummet. As word of the "Uganda miracle" spread, journalists, researchers, policy-makers and advocates all descended to try to ascertain how it was accomplished.

By now, Uganda's success story has become virtually synonymous with the so-called ABC approach to HIV/AIDS prevention, for Abstain, Be faithful, use Condoms. And, indeed, it is clear that some combination of important changes in all three of these sexual behaviors contributed both to Uganda's extraordinary reduction in HIV/AIDS rates and to the country's ability to maintain its reduced rates through the second half of the 1990s. Beyond that, however, the picture becomes considerably less clear.

ABC refers to individual behaviors, but it also refers to the program approach and content designed to lead to those behaviors. Researchers and public health experts continue to study both and to delve into the many and varied complex relationships among them. This information is critical to determining to what extent the Uganda experience really is replicable and what from that experience productively might be exportable to other countries. At the same time, much more research is needed into the relevance of the ABC approach for the prevention of other sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) as well as unintended pregnancy and the abortions or unplanned births that inevitably follow, both in Sub-Saharan Africa and in other parts of the world.

Meanwhile, U.S.-based social conservatives in and out of government—even as they pay homage to the ABC mantra— continue to confuse all of these issues. For them, ABC has become little more than an excuse and justification to promote their long-standing agenda regarding people's sexual behavior and the kind of sex education they should receive: A for unmarried people, bolstered by advocacy of B, but for most people, "anything but C."
Uganda and ABC

Measuring sexual behavior change. Among public health experts, it is by now generally agreed that during the critical time period between the late 1980s and mid-1990s, positive changes in A, B and C behaviors occurred and that all of these changes played a role in reducing HIV rates. Uganda's HIV prevalence steadily increased until about 1991, when it peaked at about 15% (30% among pregnant women in urban areas). It then turned sharply downward through the mid-1990s and reached 5% (14% for pregnant urban women) by 2001.

The findings of an analysis released by The Alan Guttmacher Institute in November 2003, A, B and C in Uganda: The Roles of Abstinence, Monogamy and Condom Use in HIV Decline, are consistent with the current consensus. Between 1988 and 1995, the time period during which HIV prevalence was declining, key changes in behavior occurred.

• Fewer Ugandans were having sex at young ages. The proportion of young men who had ever had sex decreased substantially and the median age at which young women began having sex rose from 15.9 in 1988 to 16.3 in 1995. Importantly, however, among those people who were having sex, overall levels of sexual activity did not decline.

• Levels of monogamy increased. Sexually active men and women of all ages, particularly the unmarried, were less likely to have more than one sexual partner in a 12-month period in 1995 than in 1989. Other research has found that the proportion of men reporting three or more sexual partners also fell during the period.

• Condom use rose steeply among unmarried sexually active men and women. Among unmarried women who had had sex in the last four weeks, the proportion who used condoms at last intercourse rose from 1% in 1989 to 14% in 1995; among unmarried men, condom use rose from 2% to 22%.

Additional risk factors and epidemiological impact. The relationship between individual sexual behavior and HIV risk is further complicated, however, by many other factors that overlay a simple A, B and C analysis. The risk of exposure is greater, for example, in the presence of other STDs and it appears to be lower for circumcised men. The number of a man or woman's sexual partners matters, but so does the duration of relationships, the extent to which relationships might overlap, frequency of sex, specific sexual practices, how consistently and correctly condoms are used with different partners, and the stage of infection of an HIV-positive partner.

In high-prevalence settings, ascertaining exactly which behavior change or combinations of changes can have the most impact in reducing HIV infection among the population as a whole is the focus of more recent studies. Indeed, based on the Uganda experience and drawing on an understanding of the epidemiology of STDs more generally, scientists are now concluding that other things being equal, even if absolute monogamy is not attained, having fewer sexual partners, especially concurrently, may be the most significant behavior change for a population overall. (Whether this is always the most significant protective factor at the individual level may be another matter.)

Creating behavior change. It is not possible to make a direct and simple link between the changes that took place in Uganda and the policies or programs that may have caused them to happen. The widely held view among Ugandans and outside analysts, though, is that increases in all three of the ABC behaviors led to reduced HIV rates following a comprehensive national message that HIV prevention was of the utmost importance to the country and the responsibility of all of its citizens. The message was delivered in different ways through a multiplicity of approaches, programs and types of organizations and was buttressed by a level of political commitment to forthrightly addressing the AIDS crisis that was unique among African governments. President Yoweri Museveni himself exhorted Ugandans, and still does, to practice A, B and C. Further, as Harvard medical anthropologist Edward Green observed recently, "ABC is far from all that Uganda has done." Uganda, he noted, "pioneered approaches towards reducing stigma, bringing discussion of sexual behavior out into the open, involving HIV-infected people in public education, persuading individuals and couples to be tested and counseled, improving the status of women, involving religious organizations, enlisting traditional healers, and much more."

The evidence, therefore, points to the existence of a range of complementary messages and services delivered by the government and a wide diversity of nongovernmental organizations. To be sure, those messages included the importance of both young people delaying sexual initiation and "zero grazing" (monogamy). But contrary to the assertions of social conservatives that the case of Uganda proves that an undiluted "abstinenceonly" message is what makes the difference, there is no evidence that abstinence-only educational programs were even a significant factor in Uganda between 1988 and 1995.
Beyond Uganda

Encouraging signs also are beginning to emerge from other countries where HIV/AIDS had become a generalized epidemic. In Zambia, for example, HIV rates appear to be declining, at least among urban youth. The U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) notes that "clear, positive changes in all three ABC behaviors" have taken place. Indeed, it would seem that the HEART (Helping Each Other Act Responsibly) program, a major USAID-funded media campaign there, may deserve much of the credit. This program, which was designed for and by youth, promotes both abstinence and condom use. One year after the campaign's initiation, indications are that young people exposed to its comprehensive messages are 46% more likely to be delaying or stopping having sex and 67% more likely to have used a condom the last time they had sex, compared with those who were not exposed.

In Jamaica, where HIV rates are still relatively low but sexual activity at early ages is prevalent, a similar media campaign is beginning to show results. According to a recent summary from the USAID-sponsored YouthNet project, "More than half of the youth who recalled the ads said the ads had influenced how they handle boy/girl relationships through abstaining from sex, not giving into sexual pressure, and always using a condom/contraceptive when having sex."

HIV/AIDS rates also are declining in Cambodia, Thailand and the Dominican Republic, three other countries where various combinations of ABC behavioral changes appear to have played an important role. In Cambodia and Thailand, the epidemic spread mainly through prostitution. Both countries are adopting a "100% condom use" policy in brothels, and it is yielding positive results. In the Dominican Republic, meanwhile, the infection rate has slowed mainly due to men having fewer sexual partners as well as to increased condom use.

Finally, Brazil has so successfully stemmed the tide of HIV/AIDS that only half the number of Brazilians are infected today as the World Bank had predicted only a few years ago. Brazil's case may be atypical in one sense because of the government's decision to make free anti-retroviral drugs available to anyone who qualifies for AIDS therapy. But it is equally atypical within Latin America because of the government's decision to promote frank talk about sex as well as condom distribution programs. Indeed, the Brazilian Health Ministry announced plans in August 2003 to distribute condoms to sexually active high school students in five Brazilian cities to prevent not only HIV/AIDS but also teenage pregnancy. Officials are particularly concerned about preventing HIV-posi-tive teenage girls from becoming pregnant and then transmitting HIV/AIDS to their newborn infants.
Beyond HIV and ABC

Despite the evidence from Uganda and these other countries, U.S. HIV prevention policy is focused on promoting abstinence. Indeed, Global AIDS Coordinator Randall Tobias personally endorsed a provision in recently enacted U.S. law requiring that at least one-third of all U.S. assistance to prevent HIV/AIDS globally be reserved for "abstinence-until-marriage" programs. In effect, this makes "abstinence-until-marriage" advocacy the single most important HIV/AIDS prevention intervention of the U.S. government.

Social conservatives pressed for this result because, at least with regard to the general population, they dismiss the effectiveness of risk-reduction strategies such as those that promote correct and consistent condom use. Some, like Joseph Loconte of the Heritage Foundation, go further, denouncing even those programs that target particular high-risk groups with risk-reduction messages on the grounds that they "legitimize promiscuity, prostitution and illegal drug use." Instead, he and others advocate a strict "risk elimination" approach—which itself must be regarded as a risky strategy, given that risk elimination depends on 100% compliance 100% of the time.

Conservatives further assert that the availability of condoms has a "disinhibiting" effect on people's sexual behavior. By that logic, what could be more disinhibiting than the promise, and increasing reality, of HIV treatment? Certainly, correct and consistent contraceptive and condom use is difficult for ordinary people to maintain over long periods of time. But if reports on the recent rise in HIV incidence in the United States pointing to "prevention fatigue" as one of the contributors have merit, should not strict "abstinence fatigue" be considered a clear and present danger?

To be sure, living in the midst of high HIV/AIDS prevalence can be a strong motivator for behavior change. As Harvard's Green wrote recently, in countries "where infection rates exceed 30% and funerals for family and friends are held several times a week, abstinence and faithfulness are attractive alternatives to death." Presumably, more and more-careful condom use would be an attractive alternative in the face of these circumstances as well—and the experience of high-prevalence communities in the United States from roughly the same time period during which Uganda turned its rates around indicates that, indeed, this was so. The critical questions, therefore, become: What behaviors may be more or less realistic for individuals to both achieve and sustain—especially as the imminent crisis begins to ebb? And how best can they be encouraged to do so?

Finally, that Brazil and Jamaica, to name just two countries, have linked HIV/AIDS prevention strategies with the prevention of unintended pregnancy is a reflection of the complex realities of life and sexual relationships. Women, especially, often are trying to prevent both simultaneously. How useful or relevant is the ABC approach for the broader range of reproductive health–related conditions individuals face in everyday life—especially a segmented approach that targets different messages to different groups of people rather than recognizing that the same people may need different messages at different stages of life? Even if a woman abstains until marriage, for example, she is likely to still want and need "C"—be it Condoms or other Contraception— in order to be able to plan her childbearing. Alternatively, how can a married woman who wants to become pregnant protect herself from the risk of HIV/AIDS from her husband who may have other sexual partners? And for a young woman who has so far abstained from sex altogether, must she wait until she is already sexually active until she is entitled to the full and accurate information necessary to protect herself from unplanned pregnancy and disease? These are just some of the questions raised by the ABC approach to sexual risk reduction.

"What happened" in Uganda between the late 1980s and mid-1990s happened in a specific place and time and under very specific circumstances. There is much to be learned from it. But advocates and policymakers seeking the simplicity of a single program model to replicate should be cautioned that Uganda’s experience may have limited implications—even for making further gains in that country, let alone for other countries, other time periods and the range of reproductive health concerns beyond HIV that women and men face. Public health experts and researchers, meanwhile, have a special responsibility to recognize and explicate the complexities of these questions, even as they redouble their efforts to answer them.

From an article by Susan A. Cohen in the December 2003 issue of The Guttmacher Report on Public Policy. This article was supported in part by a grant from the Program on Reproductive Health and Rights of the Open Society Institute. Production of this Issues in Brief is supported by a grant from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation as part of the project Protecting the Next Generation: Understanding HIV Risk Among Youth. The conclusions and opinions expressed here, however, are those of the author and The Alan Guttmacher Institute.


http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/ib2004no2.html

The essence? Conservative groups are illegitimately using the Ugandan experience to push their purantical views on sex.

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President Bush's coddling with the religious right has left him out of touch with reality in how the majority of humans intimately relate to their partners.

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  Old Post 11-07-2004 22:11
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I would say so: their attitude towards sex is that anything other than doing it with a person of the opposite sex to whom you are married, in the missionary position and in the dark, is evil and should be stopped.

That is, unless you are rich.

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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon

The essence? Conservative groups are illegitimately using the Ugandan experience to push their purantical views on sex.


That is ONE HELL of a brief summation of your article Agathon.

The article points out that in many cases the ABC strategy does work. It also states that some groups equate the ABC program with total abstinence. To be true, the fight on AIDS needs to be fought using a range of remedies, not just abstinence only and condoms only.

Though when you keep repeating over and over that the Republicans are dooming Africa because of the conservative view on sex then I think you're full of it and need to pay attention to what you're posting. This article presents one hell of a validation for the ABC program while only very vaguely stating that "it probably worked because of the time and place".

In short, the article validates ABC and warns against summation, much like your brief little frothing of the mouth at the end of the article. Remember, the Bush AIDS program is better than nothing.

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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
No. What I mean is that people with your attitude will at best make no difference, and at worst increase suffering.


Telling them not to have sex will INCREASE suffering?

quote:
As I said, those on the political right have the naive attitude that all that is required of them is to lecture Africans about the joys of abstinence. It's a thoroughly stupid and dangerous attitude.


More like, we'll warn them, and if they ignore is, it's their own fault and they can go screw themselves for all we really care.

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quote:
Originally posted by Admiral
As to the abstinence arguement itself, it might work somewhat, but it in and of itself is not an answer, or not even part of an answer. To demonstrate its weakness, I bring forth as exhibit A my former high school. We were all told in health that abstinence is the key to avoiding unwanted pregnancies, and avoiding STDs. However, that did not prevent large amounts of people from going out and sexifying to their heart's content. Evidence points that this is also the case in Africa.
Therefore, requiring that Africans conform to our moral viewpoint as the only way to prevent them eventually dying of aides is a rather harsh policy.


We aren't requiring anything of them. We're giving them advice on how not to contract AIDS. It's their own fault if they don't take it - if they don't, I really don't care one jot if they feel the consequences of their own actions - the horror! And before you go ranting again about the religious right, note that I'm an atheist

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quote:
Originally posted by Harry Tuttle

That is ONE HELL of a brief summation of your article Agathon.


And an amusing one, I might add.

quote:
The article points out that in many cases the ABC strategy does work. It also states that some groups equate the ABC program with total abstinence. To be true, the fight on AIDS needs to be fought using a range of remedies, not just abstinence only and condoms only.


If there is any merit to the ABC position, it is that. But this is not what the original article was complaining about. The gripe was with abstinence dominating the rest and condom handouts being relegated to "approved" people. Having said that, it is also unfair to ignore the attitude adjustment efforts of other programs.

quote:
Though when you keep repeating over and over that the Republicans are dooming Africa because of the conservative view on sex then I think you're full of it and need to pay attention to what you're posting. This article presents one hell of a validation for the ABC program while only very vaguely stating that "it probably worked because of the time and place".


If you look around, you will find that there is some scepticism about it. If you look at the previous article, you will see that it recommends supplementing the ABC program with female contraceptives and other measures, because ABC by itself does not work. Consider also that it is one thing to promote abstinence among the young, but another thing entirely to try to overturn the sexual mores of an adult population.

quote:
In short, the article validates ABC and warns against summation, much like your brief little frothing of the mouth at the end of the article. Remember, the Bush AIDS program is better than nothing.


The article points our the shortcomings of the ABC program, which should be apparent to any reasonable person who thought about it.

It also makes a number of good points:

quote:
Meanwhile, U.S.-based social conservatives in and out of government—even as they pay homage to the ABC mantra— continue to confuse all of these issues. For them, ABC has become little more than an excuse and justification to promote their long-standing agenda regarding people's sexual behavior and the kind of sex education they should receive: A for unmarried people, bolstered by advocacy of B, but for most people, "anything but C."
Uganda and ABC


quote:
But contrary to the assertions of social conservatives that the case of Uganda proves that an undiluted "abstinenceonly" message is what makes the difference, there is no evidence that abstinence-only educational programs were even a significant factor in Uganda between 1988 and 1995.


Hence my position that abstinence only programs are useless, and that an abstinence only program masking itself as an ABC program is also useless. That is what the original article was complaining about.

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
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  Old Post 11-07-2004 23:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Kucinich

More like, we'll warn them, and if they ignore is, it's their own fault and they can go screw themselves for all we really care.

If you don't care, why warn them in the first place?

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
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  Old Post 11-07-2004 23:46
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BTW, Kucinich, do you hold the same views wrt AIDS prevention in the West? In the US?

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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  Old Post 11-07-2004 23:47 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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Kucinich's problem is that he's never been laid.

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Apparently, Kucinich believes that people who have AIDS deserve what they got?


So I suppose if someone in his family died from a heart attack because that person had poor diet and did not exercise, Kucinich would not mourn for his family member's death because he/she got what was coming?

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  Old Post 12-07-2004 01:00
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Agathon, thanks for making the argument. Going out for a bit but I'm glad that there was a discussion and not a ***** fest. Thanks.

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  Old Post 12-07-2004 01:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon


Typical Republican attitude.
Possibly. We do tend to have an ingrained belief in personal responsibility.

 
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