12-07-2004 01:28									#91
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...except for yourselves.

	12-07-2004 03:58									#92
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abstinance What a crock of ****!

It's easy for married guys to say this. They have a steady supply of *****. But for us single guys, abstinance is not an option. I can't find a girl to marry me.

It's **** like this that pisses me off. It's time to kill president Bush.

I think this abstinance bullshit is just another way of saying Bush doesn't care about Aids in third world nations.

	12-07-2004 04:10									#93
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In a foul mood today, Diss?

	12-07-2004 05:04									#94
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Possibly. We do tend to have an ingrained belief in personal responsibility.

The fact that people are responsible for their own actions does not have to exclude the possibility for compassion for AIDS victims.

	12-07-2004 05:29									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist In a foul mood today, Diss?

not really. But the Bush administration continues to piss me off more every day. I didn't think my opinion of them could sink any lower. I was wrong.

	12-07-2004 05:40									#96
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Vote for Kerry as many times as possible then.

	12-07-2004 05:54									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist BTW, Kucinich, do you hold the same views wrt AIDS prevention in the West? In the US?

Yes. Unless you got it from a blood transfusion, it's your own fault if you get it.

	12-07-2004 05:55									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist If you don't care, why warn them in the first place?

It's not really their fault if they didn't know. Once they've been warned, I have no pity. It's sort of like telling someone if they touch a hot pan, they'll get burned.

	12-07-2004 05:57									#99
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Apparently, Kucinich believes that people who have AIDS deserve what they got?

What do you mean, deserve? I think it's their own fault, and the consequences of their own actions, and they were warned! So I don't really feel any pity.

quote: So I suppose if someone in his family died from a heart attack because that person had poor diet and did not exercise, Kucinich would not mourn for his family member's death because he/she got what was coming?

Obviously I would be sad, because it's a member of my family. It doesn't mean that I somehow think it was "unfair" or whatever.

	12-07-2004 05:58									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident not really. But the Bush administration continues to piss me off more every day. I didn't think my opinion of them could sink any lower. I was wrong.

People get mad at him because he lied about Iraq, and now the same ones get mad because he told the plain, simple, literal truth?

	12-07-2004 06:35									#101
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Agathon, thanks for digging.

	12-07-2004 06:52									#102
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First of all, talking about female contraception and AIDS in the same statement or thread is stupid. The only form of female contraception that would inhibit AIDS is the female condom and I do not know if they are still available. The problem is that is condoms are pushed, it is a game of Russian roulette. Try this analogy. Abstinance is taking the gun (AIDS) away. You will not catch AIDS if you are abstinant unless you need a blood transfusion. Giving condoms is taking a loaded revolver and removing five or the six bullets. Play as long as you want and you might live. Safe sex is an oxymoron. I had a baby by condom so I know. Stop your preaching and look at a comprehensive program that stresses masturbation and abstinance, with condoms being a last resort and it may make some sense. BTW, are these people rabbits? They must breed or the parts will fall off? What an archaic ideal. That thinking was used to prove rape was necessary because a man could not control himself. Yeech.

	12-07-2004 07:14									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Hellish? I thought we were talking about AIDS, not Ebola. As deaths go, AIDS isn't particularly hellish.

So how many people do you know personally who have died as a result infection with H.I.V. and of having Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome?


Do you know what the effects of cyto-megalo virus on the brain and the optic nerve are?

http://www.clevelandclinic.org/heal...?index=9972&;src=/forums/news

How about long term peripheral neuropathy:

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/health_and...ropathy_doc.htm

Kaposi's Sarcoma:

http://hivinsite.ucsf.edu/InSite.jsp?page=kb-06-02-03

meningitis:

http://www.emedicine.com/EMERG/topic163.htm

pneumo-cystis pneumonia:

http://www.healthatoz.com/healthato..._pneumonia.html

toxoplasmosis:

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dpd/paras...xoplasmosis.htm

I suggest before you start giving Apolyton the benefit of your inexperience with regards to deaths from H.I.V. infection you get some 'hands on' experience.

If you think that watching someone die, doubly incontinent, deaf, blind and insane, isn't hellish either for them or for their partner, or their friends, then clearly you have a different definition of 'hellish'- one I suspect that is formed by your ignorance of the matter.

	12-07-2004 08:34									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Yes. Unless you got it from a blood transfusion, it's your own fault if you get it.

In your long history of disgraceful and boorish posts, this ranks near the top.

Presumably, when you go to college and some attractive young lady offers you the opportunity to have sex with her (if any college educated woman would conceivably put out for someone with your attitude), you won't be barrelling off to church to ask the Lord for help in crushing your urges.

It's a good bed that you'll end up having sex, just like most normal people. In fact you'll find it almost impossible to turn down at your age.

If you have any brains, you'll use a condom to be safe. Does this make you morally responsible for catching AIDS? No more than eating a burger makes you responsible for catching Mad Cow Disease, or diriving in a car means that you deserve to be injured in an accident.

And you have had some sex education, which is something alien to most Africans: so at least you know about the risks of AIDS and the benefits of condom use.

What the hell is wrong with you, if you think that you can live a normal life as a celibate. Sure, a few people can, but for most people it is out of the question, nor should they be made to feel bad about it, it's quite normal.

	12-07-2004 08:48									#105
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Aggie,

Take it easy.

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse ...except for yourselves.

You stole my thunder

	12-07-2004 08:51									#106
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom So how many people do you know personally who have died as a result infection with H.I.V. and of having Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome? Do you know what the effects of cyto-megalo virus on the brain and the optic nerve are? http://www.clevelandclinic.org/heal...?index=9972&;src=/forums/news How about long term peripheral neuropathy: http://www.ninds.nih.gov/health_and...ropathy_doc.htm Kaposi's Sarcoma: http://hivinsite.ucsf.edu/InSite.jsp?page=kb-06-02-03 meningitis: http://www.emedicine.com/EMERG/topic163.htm pneumo-cystis pneumonia: http://www.healthatoz.com/healthato..._pneumonia.html toxoplasmosis: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dpd/paras...xoplasmosis.htm I suggest before you start giving Apolyton the benefit of your inexperience with regards to deaths from H.I.V. infection you get some 'hands on' experience. If you think that watching someone die, doubly incontinent, deaf, blind and insane, isn't hellish either for them or for their partner, or their friends, then clearly you have a different definition of 'hellish'- one I suspect that is formed by your ignorance of the matter.

Still, having your insides turn liquid and leak out of your orifices is somewhat more painful.

	12-07-2004 08:54									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon If you have any brains, you'll use a condom to be safe. Does this make you morally responsible for catching AIDS? No more than eating a burger makes you responsible for catching Mad Cow Disease, or diriving in a car means that you deserve to be injured in an accident.

What does moral responsiblity have to do with this? You don't hurt anyone but yourself if you get AIDS (unless you give it to someone else, but that's irrelevant to what we're talking about). It's just, after you've been warned, you can't blame anything but your own decision for your condition. You knew the risk was there, and decided to take it. Do you cry over dead skydivers?

	12-07-2004 10:43									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich quote: Originally posted by MrFun Apparently, Kucinich believes that people who have AIDS deserve what they got? What do you mean, deserve? I think it's their own fault, and the consequences of their own actions, and they were warned! So I don't really feel any pity.

It would be too patronizing to show pity to someone -- compassion is a much more respectable way of showing sympathy or even empathy for some people.

I'm not arguing whether or not many AIDS victims failed to take responsibility for their own actions. Obviously, many of them did. But like I said, I'm not going to kick a guy who is already down because he got AIDS even if he was not responsible.

	12-07-2004 10:47									#109
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We aren't kicking them at all.

I'm just saying, I really don't care that Bush is telling them that abstinence is the only 100% protection against AIDS, especially given that it's the gospel truth, and I don't really feel compelled to spend money helping out those who didn't take the advice and got burned.

	12-07-2004 10:51									#110
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Abstinence is one of the more effective ways to prevent STDs -- that's obvious to anyone. And abstinence would work if we lived in a fantastical, uptight, Victorian world that by the way, never existed in human history (during the actual so-called Victorian era, sex outside of marriage abounded just as in every other time).

But pray tell me how you tell people to abstain from sex when you know the likliehood of that is oh, I don't know . . . . close to zero?

	12-07-2004 10:54									#111
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Kucinich, when some French Montreal hottie takes you back to her place you're going to be damn glad you know what you do about condoms, STDs and pregnancy, and that you hadn't simply been told by some fat old white dude that abstinence was the only sure way to avoid STDs.

	12-07-2004 10:55									#112
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quote: Abstinence is one of the more effective ways to prevent STDs -- that's obvious to anyone.

It is the most effective, being in fact 100% effective, quite obviously.

quote: And abstinence would work if we lived in a fantastical, uptight, Victorian world that by the way, never existed in human history (during the actual so-called Victorian era, sex outside of marriage abounded just as in every other time).

Actually, it still works. It's just lots of people don't actually do it. It's their own fault.

quote: But pray tell me how you tell people to abstain from sex when you know the likliehood of that is oh, I don't know . . . . close to zero?

Because then they've been warned, and it really is their fault if they get burned. It's not possibly in any way, shape or form my responsibility to help them.

	12-07-2004 10:55									#113
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KH -- you have to explain to Kucinich what condoms are first.

	12-07-2004 11:02									#114
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I've actually read the instructions on the side of a condom package. I'm glad I didn't learn to put one on from there in the heat of the moment.

	12-07-2004 11:03									#115
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun KH -- you have to explain to Kucinich what condoms are first.

What are these "condoms"?

	12-07-2004 12:26									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Still, having your insides turn liquid and leak out of your orifices is somewhat more painful.

Do yourself and us a big fat favour- shut the f*ck up about a subject on which you are painfully ill-informed and clearly too emotionally immature to deal with.


Frankly I'm glad you're several thousand miles away at the moment becuase I don't think anyone's posts, not even the religionistas at their most obtuse and obdurate have caused me as much anger as your puerile screeds.

Perhaps you could also tell us what you know about the state of health service provision in sub-Saharan Africa, old age pensions, sick pay, unemployment benefit, ah f*ck it, just don't bother posting any more inanity in this thread.

	12-07-2004 13:19									#117
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Don't be so hard on him, he's just a child

	12-07-2004 13:34									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Yes. Unless you got it from a blood transfusion, it's your own fault if you get it.

The question was, should AIDS prevention in the West consist solely of abstinence campaigns.

Claiming that HIV/AIDS only affects the infected is bizarre, BTW. An estimated several hundred thousand children have died of insufficient care because their parents have been killed by AIDS. The disease is a huge drag on many African economies, and costs are not exactly neglible everywhere else either. Large numbers of people are dying, or going to die, because costs incured by AIDS is squeezing out spending on the prevention of other diseases.

But I guess getting infected by Malaria is your own fault too?

	13-07-2004 04:04									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich What does moral responsiblity have to do with this? You don't hurt anyone but yourself if you get AIDS (unless you give it to someone else, but that's irrelevant to what we're talking about). It's just, after you've been warned, you can't blame anything but your own decision for your condition. You knew the risk was there, and decided to take it. Do you cry over dead skydivers?

Dude, the goal here is for AIDS to go the way of Polio and the Passenger Pigeon. Personal responsobility is a pretty pair of words that has nothing to do with the goal.

	13-07-2004 04:08									#120
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Agathon,

quote: In your long history of disgraceful and boorish posts, this ranks near the top....blah blah blah...

You're missing something. Having unprotected sex in an area statistically low risk for AIDs or other serious STDs is not the same as having unprotected sex in someplace like Africa or Thailand. Duh.

Either way, though, it's your own fault if you catch AIDs as a result of unprotected sex. Hell, even if you try to use a condom and still get AIDs, it's still your own fault. Condoms aren't 100% effective - reasonable people know the risk involved, and most of those people ignore it. Doesn't mean they aren't responsible for the consequences of their actions, though.