13-07-2004 04:14									#121
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

No it isn't. Married women are getting it because their husbands have been visiting hookers. Women are forced into prostitution through economic circumstances and are getting it because they don't know about safe sex.

Normal people can't avoid having sex in the same way they can't avoid eating. Of course, some people would have us believe that you are somehow morally responsible for your infection if you catch a stomach bug from food you had good reason to believe was safe.

Fifteen years ago I thought that some conservatives didn't care about AIDS because homosexuals were getting it. Now I realize that they don't care if anyone gets it other than themselves.

	13-07-2004 04:16									#122
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Of course the Bush administration doesn't care about the suffering caused by AIDS because they seem to think it is better to endorse a solution that is proven to be useless instead of doing what will actually minimize suffering.

Actually, abstinence IS a proven 100% effective strategy to avoid catching an STD.

The US government isn't handing out condoms for free? I'm sorry, I didn't realize the US had an obligation to do so. Besides, giving away free condoms simply creates another victim - the US taxpayer.

The Bush Administration is simply saying that the US will not give away condoms for free, which is perfectly legitimate, and instead, is provided advice which, if followed will virtually eliminate the spread of AIDs. If, HYPOTHETICALLY, everyone stuck to one sexual partner - their husband/wife - then the spread of AIDs would nosedive.

Is it likely that people in Africa will take this advice? Not particularly. But whose fault is that?

Oh, and Agathon? Crime IS the fault and responsibility of the criminals!

	13-07-2004 04:21									#123
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: No it isn't. Married women are getting it because their husbands have been visiting hookers.

What's your point? If the husbands didn't visit hookers, it wouldn't be a problem. Yes, the fact that men visit hookers isn't the fault of their wives, but then again, it certainly isn't my fault. The solution to stopping the spread of AIDs is abstinence until marriage - and I freely admit that won't 100% eliminate AIDs, but it will at least GREATLY restrict the spread of it, assuming both partners are faithful. What an unreasonable ideal

quote: Women are forced into prostitution through economic circumstances and are getting it because they don't know about safe sex.

No, women are getting AIDs because they have unprotected sex with multiple people in high risk environments. Being poor doesn't give them an excuse for being stupid.

quote: Normal people can't avoid having sex in the same way they can't avoid eating. Of course, some people would have us believe that you are somehow morally responsible for your infection if you catch a stomach bug from food you had good reason to believe was safe.

What idiot believes that it's safe to have sex in Thailand or sub-Saharan Africa? If I catch something from food that's been sitting out for a week, it damn well is my fault.

Edit: Bolded the above text because it points out the true idiocy of Agathon's argument.

	13-07-2004 04:27									#124
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

What kind of idiot believes that all Thais and Africans should stop having sex?

You need to get out for a change.

	13-07-2004 05:00									#125
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich As deaths go, AIDS isn't particularly hellish.

You've no idea what you're talking about. Ever seen anyone dying from AIDS?

	13-07-2004 05:03									#126
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd What idiot believes that it's safe to have sex in Thailand or sub-Saharan Africa? If I catch something from food that's been sitting out for a week, it damn well is my fault.

The kind of "idiot" that can't move to a different country just to have sex.

	13-07-2004 05:28									#127
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Do yourself and us a big fat favour- shut the f*ck up about a subject on which you are painfully ill-informed and clearly too emotionally immature to deal with.

Ebola?

	13-07-2004 05:29									#128
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist But I guess getting infected by Malaria is your own fault too?

it's extremely easy to keep yourself from getting AIDS, not so for malaria.

	13-07-2004 05:30									#129
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov You've no idea what you're talking about. Ever seen anyone dying from AIDS?

I'm comparing it to Ebola.

	13-07-2004 05:35									#130
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich I'm comparing it to Ebola.

No, you were saying it's not a particularly "hellish" disease. The sentence I quoted above is saying rather explicitely that AIDS isn't that bad.

It IS hellish, and I know people who have been through it, both dead and alive. Frankly, for Africans who don't have access to medical care, Ebola would be better. At least that's over in a matter of days. AIDS takes a lot longer to kill, and it does so in a horrific way.

	13-07-2004 05:40									#131
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

By the time you get to the point where your organs have liquefied you're almost certainly in the grips of fever-induced dementia anyway.

I don't know how painful Ebola actually is, especially given the rapidity of progression.

There are certain modes of death among AIDS patients on the other hand which can last for months and which leave the victim conscious of his physical state and imminent demise the entire time.

The best thing you can hope for with AIDS is that you catch some sort of respiratory disease which ravages your lungs in a matter of days, giving you pneumonia and leaving you to die from drowning on your own mucus.

	13-07-2004 05:47									#132
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Whatever. I concede the point. It doesn't matter either way, really*

*in terms of the argument

	13-07-2004 05:53									#133
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Tell that to a 14 year-old Thai hooker dying of AIDS because there weren't enough condoms to go around due to money being spent on a Catholic priest who told her to just say no to premarital sex.

	13-07-2004 06:01									#134
	Inflate your Upload Space

Did you notice the asterisk? It's not relevant to the debate, the seriousness of the disease. The only reason it came up at all was because I was nitpicking.

	13-07-2004 07:12									#135
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Have you ever seen anyone die from a painful terminal illness, K?

I suggest you do, before you start making such ridiculous and barbaric assertions.

	13-07-2004 07:13									#136
	Full PM-box? Change here!

And my point is that it's necessary to understand the horror of the disease so that you don't fall into the trap of pushing a moral agenda at the cost of what would be most effective at reducing transmission rates.

	13-07-2004 07:31									#137
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid Don't be so hard on him, he's just a child

There's an old English saying- children should be seen and not heard.

He'd do well to profit from it, before venturing into the grown up world where people who have watched a close friend die by degrees don't take well to adolescent posturing.


Translated into Park Avenue speech, that translates into a desire to push someone's face in.

	13-07-2004 09:03									#138
	Support Apolyton

Agathon,

quote: What kind of idiot believes that all Thais and Africans should stop having sex?

I never said that - just that they should stop having sex with anyone but their spouse. And no, that wouldn't completely stop AIDs, but it's damn well curb the epidemic.

St. Leo,

quote: The kind of "idiot" that can't move to a different country just to have sex.

That's funny - since when is sex a prerequisite for living? In fact, in this case, it seems quite the opposite. If my choices were celibacy and AIDs, I think I'd probably have to go with celibacy.

KH,

quote: Tell that to a 14 year-old Thai hooker dying of AIDS because there weren't enough condoms to go around due to money being spent on a Catholic priest who told her to just say no to premarital sex.

Well, if she listened to the priest she might not have AIDs to begin with

And it's not like priests telling you to say no to premarital sex is anything new, either.

	13-07-2004 09:14									#139
	Inflate your Upload Space

No, but the US paying money for them to do so is.

	13-07-2004 09:14									#140
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Well, if she listened to the priest she might not have AIDs to begin with

No, but her pimp would have beat her to death.

	13-07-2004 09:17									#141
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Wait, because there isn't any particular rule of law there... we have to give them free condoms?

EDIT: type

Last edited by Kuciwalker on 14-07-2004 at 00:37

	13-07-2004 09:19									#142
	Tired of ads?

How about: because it would save lives we should give them free condoms?

	13-07-2004 09:20									#143
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

And most especially we shouldn't waste what money we are willing to spend on programs which are more about pushing a moral agenda than they are about public health.

	13-07-2004 09:20									#144
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

And most especially we shouldn't waste what money we are willing to spend on programs which are more about pushing a moral agenda than they are about public health.

	13-07-2004 09:21									#145
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

KH,

quote: No, but the US paying money for them to do so is.

I quite agree - we shouldn't be giving them money at all.

quote: No, but her pimp would have beat her to death.

Well, then she's stuck between two equally poor choices. Nations like the US don't exist to make life easier for others, though, and I don't exist to help others. If I want to, that's fine, but I have no obligation.

	13-07-2004 09:23									#146
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: How about : because it would save lives we should give them free condoms?

That's rather like giving welfare to a poor person - it isn't a real solution to the problem of AIDs anymore than welfare is a solution to poverty. The solution to AIDs is for people to be sexually responsible, in that they limit the number of sexual partners they are with. At the same time, if they want to use condoms, that's fine if they can afford them, but if they are being responsible to begin with it isn't as big of an issue. But the simple act of using a condom doesn't really make one sexually responsible.

	13-07-2004 09:25									#147
	Remove this text

And out comes the Libertarian nutjob. Nice to see you again, Dave.

	13-07-2004 10:37									#148
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Actually, abstinence IS a proven 100% effective strategy to avoid catching an STD.

Absolutely.

So is cutting your own head off.

	13-07-2004 11:00									#149
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

KH,

quote: And out comes the Libertarian nutjob. Nice to see you again, Dave.

I'm not sure what Libertarianism has to do with abstinence education vs. handing out condoms. One is proven to be more effective than the other, if practiced, in stopping AIDs, and that's abstinence. The problem is getting people to do it - but the simple fact is, if people have a solution in front of them, and they ignore it, then it's their responsibility.

UR,

quote: Absolutely. So is cutting your own head off.

That's a pretty ****ing stupid comparison - if you cut your head off, you die. If you decide not to have sex in order to avoid AIDs, not only do you live, but you are deciding not to kill yourself. If sex is more important to someone than their life, then I'd say their priorities are misplaced.

	13-07-2004 11:20									#150
	Put an end to popups!

Floyd,

Just because a method is 100% effective does not mean it should be the one you use.