15-07-2004 23:28									#31
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So BNP is basically neonazis?

	15-07-2004 23:33									#32
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quote: Muslim suicide bombers in Palestine commit a heck of a lot more violence than the BNP, in a land they also consider to be rightfully theirs and theirs alone.

Muslims as a whole consider Britain their own? If you’re thinking in terms of assimilation, that goes for all major Semitic religions.

quote: I wonder when the BBC will do an expose on suicide bombers with the same indignant slant and abuse that this programme will undoubtedly take on.

Speaking purely critically, a first-hand experience is the most reliable form of evidence. Consider that critiques of suicide bombers are given far more airtime than the BNP, and the BNP (and generally nationalists) as a political movement are generally far more dangerous as they seek credibility, something suicide bombers won’t get in the British political elite.

I don’t think an explanation of the dangers of nationalism is required here, particularly where it concerns those who are not educated in its history.

quote: The anti-semitism in Britain and Europe seems to be more of a left-wing issue anyway.

Nationalism/fascism and its victims are merely consequential of the same processes, namely the artificial division between two groups of people played upon by the nationalists (this noble group is being attacked by that evil group yadda yadda rivers of blood). Different groups, same division, in that respect it will always be a fascist trait, be it economically right or left, that is irrelevant. You need to get away from your simplistic notion of “right” and “left”, they merely dictate economic policy, not social/ethical philosophy.

quote: Anti-semitism does not mean "against the Israeli government," Stewie.

Here, here!! I’m a Jew and I’m opposed to the current Israeli government, and many forms of Zionism, as are many Jews.

quote: Martin Luther King Jr. said that to be against the Zionist movement is to be anti-semetic.

And Martin Luther King Jr., in this matter, was in error. I, and many other Jews are opposed to Zionism.

	15-07-2004 23:38									#33
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quote: So BNP is basically neonazis?

In the truest sense, yes. In the sense of anti-semitic, only partly, and not in terms of policy. The policy of the BNP of course is merely a facade, the same members, the same views, the same characters, the same undercurrent that would show through as soon as they achieve power... testing their statement of policies. Who ever heard of a political party sticking to its manifesto 100%, even when its members counted on it doing so? Imagine the situation where many members want to take the party in a different direction!!!

Different target, same gun.

	15-07-2004 23:39									#34
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quote: And Martin Luther King Jr., in this matter, was in error. I, and many other Jews are opposed to Zionism.

nah, I just think you are self-loathing then. MLK! MLK! MLK!

	15-07-2004 23:44									#35
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Not really, I don't think that Zionism is a good idea for Judaism, in intent, and in consequence a bad idea for Judaism and a bad idea for the region and world.

	15-07-2004 23:50									#36
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quote: The policy of the BNP of course is merely a facade, the same members, the same views, the same characters, the same undercurrent that would show through as soon as they achieve power

..which will never happen but in the meantime they provide a counterweight to the left-liberal "elites" and bureaucrats.

	15-07-2004 23:51									#37
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quote: ..which will never happen but in the meantime they provide a counterweight to the left-liberal "elites" and bureaucrats.

So you concede that such nationalists in power is a bad idea?

The left-liberal elites? Please elaborate? If you're referring to the people that are trained in running the country, (at least on paper philosopher kings and all that) then I'd rather they run things than a consensus of idiots. Please clarify your trolls.

	15-07-2004 23:54									#38
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One thing is clear..the BBC is failing in its charter terms to represent the views of BNP voters who now represent 5% of the electorate.

	16-07-2004 00:00									#39
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Did you read that from the BNP's article:
http://www.bnp.org.uk/articles/bbc_blinkers.htm ?

As I said earlier, far more airtime is devoted to the misdeeds of suicide bombers than the BNP. Nonetheless, the BBC is not required by charter to represent in terms of airtime or quality the views of people by a quote. Furthermore, it is also a socially responsible organisation, which will automatically oppose it to the BNP somewhat, though I must say it could and probably should be far more critical of the nationalists. If I were in charge of the BBC, the BNP would be firebombing my house!

	16-07-2004 00:10									#40
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quote: http://www.bnp.org.uk/articles/bbc_blinkers.htm

Wow, thanks for the link.

Everyone should read that before posting. Of course, many won't.

	16-07-2004 00:12									#41
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Source, credibility, the "Whaleboy laugh" factor

	16-07-2004 02:12									#42
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Seen it. So the BNP has a couple of bad apples. Name me a political party that doesn't.

Let's see what the police do

	16-07-2004 02:29									#43
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You're very quick to defend the BNP PA?

	16-07-2004 02:41									#44
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quote: So the BNP has a couple of bad apples

	16-07-2004 03:34									#45
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I think Nick Griffiths is only saying what a lot of people actually believe, its just he has the balls to say it.

The BBC doesn't seem to draw a distinction between what is legal, and what is insulting, I for one do not agree that Islam is evil, but I defend the guys right to say what he thinks, just as anybody has the right to think any organisation is evil.

As for those who were caught admitting to actual offenses .. I believe they were all kicked out of the party ..

	16-07-2004 03:47									#46
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This is the bit where we note how you've not actually watched the program in question, The Viceroy. Not that I could blame you since the whole show was just a rehash reminding us what we all know already.

The BBC did not assert that the members of the BNP should not be able to say whatever they like. Instead they showed the BNP members saying whatever they chose to say, and then they asked legal experts if what was discussed was legal or not. Inciting an audience to become violent against others, even if you're saying, "Pakis will rape your children" rather than, "Go beat up Pakis", is illegal in Britain, and personally I believe that our right to not have people getting others to beat us up outweights that aspect of freedom of speech.

As for Nick Griffith "having the balls to say it", the entire point of the show was to illustrate what he and his colleagues DON'T have the balls to say in public, and are tricking some decent members of the public into voting for.

	16-07-2004 04:08									#47
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BNp Hitjer innit?

they are evli bastards

I waould have threma llr kiled ansd sent to NOAsy!

.ja

	16-07-2004 09:03									#48
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BNP - it just scapegoats other people

	16-07-2004 13:09									#49
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I think there are three kinds of people who "support" the BNP.

i) the truly racist (this program focussed on these - why? fair and balanced?)

ii) right-wingers who have been forced to vote for another right-wing party as a result of the centrist ineptitude of the Conservatives; these people don't like the way there seems to be a slight/moderate bias against Western/white people amongst authorities (for example, you can advertise legally a job solely for an ethnic minority, positive discrimination, ignorance of Islamic hate speech).

iii) Those who vote for the BNP as a result of their local policies and choose to ignore the wider issues around the party

I think you also have to realise that a lot of (probably all!) the BNP voters are completely disenfranchised with the political elites. They are not represented at all in Westminster, feel like they have no say, and hence resort to the more extreme solution.

Just a few random thoughts.

	16-07-2004 13:18									#50
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Actually, the reason the film got made was (if you read the article, watched the program) because someone joined the BNP because of immigration concerns and then became shocked by what actually went on within the party up to the highest level. ie. including the leader who could well be up on charges of inciting racial hatred after the evidence in the report.

	16-07-2004 13:19									#51
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"including the leader who could well be up on charges of inciting racial hatred after the evidence in the report."

He won't be. Do you want an avatar bet?

	16-07-2004 14:53									#52
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I watched some of it, but didnt really need/want to see it all. It was kinda obvious what the result would be.
The same thing with that series on the police a few months back. Racism has always been here - but its not only a white vs other race issue.

And all sides are wrong when trying to exclusively blame the other; until that is fully taken on board we will continue to go nowhere on the issue.

We should strive to better ourselves as human beings, even when it seems like the hard choice, or we're not going to make it - we'll simply destroy ourselves through hatred/greed/ignorance etc

	16-07-2004 16:01									#53
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor I watched some of it, but didnt really need/want to see it all. It was kinda obvious what the result would be.

I agree. They could do similar on any political party and find "activists" and "members" saying some things with which the party does not agree.

	16-07-2004 17:24									#54
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True, like for example the incident with that Conseritive lady and her remarks(joke) about the cockle workers(Its a poor example i know).

The point being we are all entitled to our views - its what our ancestors have fought for over the millenium, and we should be able to express them, even if they may be distressing to some. I wouldn't want to live my life any other way.

Still acts of criminality(as defined in legal laws of the country) that may lead from such views should be treated for what they are - crimes. Nothing more, nothing less.

Should someone be prosecuted for saying "Go and kill white people"? - i just dont think they should, its a slippery slope once you go down that path(which we already have in the UK).

Should someone be prosecuted for then going and killing the mentioned 'white person' - of course they should.

When we start to get the State to decide what we can and cannot say - we're one step closer to an Orwelian future.

And i dont buy the arguement that times have changed(and laws need to as well) - many of my great grandparents generation probably thought slavery was a good thing(so things haven't got worse).

For me this is mostly about freedom of speech - i'm not interested in the politics of it, and when someone expresses a view to me - or makes a racist remark, I decide at the time wether i agree or disagree, wether to walk away or take part in the conversation, wether to get offended and punch someone on the nose(and if i'm caught and charged fair enough ).

Freedom even if unpleasent.

Censorship even if with good intentions - it will be used against us.

Last edited by child of Thor on 16-07-2004 at 17:49

	16-07-2004 17:27									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue I agree. They could do similar on any political party and find "activists" and "members" saying some things with which the party does not agree.

But could they find councillors and important sections of the pary who will admit to wanting to murder entire sections of society? Has Iain ever told you his greatest fantasy is to machine gun Labour supporters?

	16-07-2004 17:27									#56
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What the **** is an avatar bet?

	16-07-2004 17:39									#57
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The one who loses has to keep an avatar which the winner decides for few weeks or so.

	16-07-2004 18:03									#58
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How childish...

So I could make PA have an avatar that said Bum Me or something?

	16-07-2004 18:11									#59
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This one might be more fun.

	16-07-2004 18:26									#60
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH How childish... So I could make PA have an avatar that said Bum Me or something?

You'd have to tread carefully - or his lawyers could have you on charges "of inciting bummers hatred" or some such