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loinburger
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Sweet Sauce Jones
Jul 1999
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Couldn't you just tutor undergrads? That pays more. Granted, it's not a steady job. But even I got $20 an hour tutoring frosh physics. |
That's how I made money in undergrad, but it didn't work in grad school -- for undergrad I went to a school where less than 1% of the student body were Math/CS majors, and so my skills were in high demand, but in grad school the school was composed of about 30-40% engineers (I dunno how many were Math/CS, but any of the upperclass engineering students could have easily taught a freshman math class for the non-engineers), plus they had a tutoring center run through the university that was free to students (and a job there paid less than an assistantship).
Besides, I made out pretty decently as a research assistant. The minimum salary allowed by the university was $8,000 a year, but my advisor started me out at $12,000 (I was an American citizen, unlike a lot of the RA's, and so I could work on some of the DARPA and aerospace contracts that the other RA's couldn't), and bumped me up to $16,000 after six months as a sort of "hey, I haven't fired you yet!" reward (in the 18 months that I worked for the guy, my advisor hired and fired 5 different RA's). I had a grand old time of my research assistantship (I don't mind living in an efficiency, and I quite enjoy macaroni and cheese), but I saw the absolute **** that most of the other RA's had to slog through -- f'rinstance, my racquetball partner was a Ph.D student from India who had the same advisor as me (he signed on at the same time as me, and by the time I graduated 18 months later we were both at least 12 months senior to all of the other RA's under our advisor's tutelage, since so many had been fired in the meantime), and he said that if he lost his assistantship there was a good chance that he'd be sent packing back to India, which essentially made him our advisor's slave-for-hire.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:34
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Ramo, etc., I'll make you a deal. I'll grant you that ANY WORKER, even grad students, have the right to unionize, if you grant that any company has the right to hire and fire at will, and, in the case of grad students, admit and expel at will. So, for example, if a bunch of grocery store clerks go on strike, the grocery store can fire them all and bring in new ones, and if a bunch of grad students go on strike, then the university can expel them.
I have no argument with unions, my argument is with laws preventing companies from hiring and firing at will.
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Ted Striker
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United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
You make it sound like we're being done a favor by being offered a research or teaching assistant position. |
Yes, you are. Why do so many students apply for these jobs if they are so unbearable?
quote:
Our services are offered for money so we can eat and pay rent. |
So, if you need money to eat and pay rent, there are other jobs, and loans. Why not go to one of those jobs where the pay is better and so are the conditions?
quote:
It's not a favor, it's a job. It's hard, typically underpaid work. Work that certainly warrants employees being treated with common decency, and being allowed to collectively bargain. |
Come on! This isn't coal mining! Welcome to the real world. You are getting access to experience most in the field don't get. It's a privilege.
I'll point you to the occupation of architecture in which the architects work for pennies yet work 3 times harder than anybody else.
quote:
If grad students were as worthless in assisting research (or teaching) as you make them out to be (which begs loin's question, why are there post-docs?), unions wouldn't have any effect at all. So where's your objection? |
Because these positions are coveted ones that are a privilege to have. Save the union for occupations where the workers are REALLY being oppressed. Secondly unions suck, and often do their members more harm than good. What are you guys going to do when you go on strike? There are plenty of other students waiting to get the job who are just as qualified so it's pretty much useless.
They could easily spend the money on something else. Or maybe get rid of the paid positions and just use a bunch of student volunteers in their place. I've seen that before.
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:34
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quote:
Yes, you are. Why do so many students apply for these jobs if they are so unbearable? |
I didn't say that they're unbearable, I said that they're hard. And from what I've seen, most students who get into grad school, get TA and RA positions so it's not so uncommon.
And why should covetted positions be illegal unionize?
quote:
So, if you need money to eat and pay rent, there are other jobs, and loans. Why not go to one of those jobs where the pay is better and so are the conditions? |
Because I like my work. Should the state remove benefits from your job because there might be ones with better pay/benefits?
Why do you keep bringing this inane logical fallacy up?
quote:
Come on! This isn't coal mining! Welcome to the real world. You are getting access to experience most in the field don't get. It's a privilege.
I'll point you to the occupation of architecture in which the architects work for pennies yet work 3 times harder than anybody else. |
I never asserted that being a TA/RA is as hard as coal-mining. What I find curious is that you believe that the state should prevent everyone but coal-miners from unionizing. Or are they being given a favor as well?
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Because these positions are coveted ones that are a privilege to have. |
They are not a privilege, they're work. Not anything else.
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Save the union for occupations where the workers are REALLY being oppressed. |
Why? Why can't both TA/RA's and coal miners be unionized? And I know you don't really give a damn, but us being unionized makes every other union or strike in the university much stronger. Since we could strike in solidarity with others. There's been a bus drivers' strike over here where some pressure from a grad students' union would've been effective.
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Secondly unions suck, and often do their members more harm than good. |
That's YOUR opinion. Why shouldn't I and others be free to make our own decisions on the matter?
quote:
What are you guys going to do when you go on strike? There are plenty of other students waiting to get the job who are just as qualified so it's pretty much useless. |
Except it's not. A school can't purge all it's RA's and TA's at once. Research would come to a grinding halt, and teaching would come to a grinding halt. Meaning the people who fund research or pay tuitions would think twice before giving the school more money.
I doubt it could find so many people who are up to date on the various research projects, etc., to continue without a huge slowdown.
And even if we might fail, how the hell is it your or the state's business to butt in?
quote:
They could easily spend the money on something else. Or maybe get rid of the paid positions and just use a bunch of student volunteers in their place. I've seen that before. |
Maybe you have, but I haven't heard of any such nonsense in physics.
I think you'll find a dearth of people willing to work 20 or 30 more hours a week (in addition to a part-time job, studying for classes, and doing one's own research) just for experience.
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OzzyKP
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Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
WTF is wrong? Next you know, high schoolers would be unionizing and making demands over homework  |
Just give me a bit of time. It'll happen. 
But I'm with Ramo, how can anyone really be denied the right to unionize? Why on earth does that have to be approved? Just don't go to work, en mass, and you're a union. Like the Newsies "even though we ain't got hats or badges, we're a union, something something"
Everyone should be able to unionize, its their labor, they can do with it what they will. Fry cooks, janitors, graduate students, et al. Why not unionize?
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18-07-2004 09:13
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