24-07-2004 19:07									#31
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I don't think it was disputed that the verbal contract existed, and verbal contracts are normally legally enforcable. The problem is that the judges are claiming that the contract is unconsciable and thus unenforcable. American Contract law allows a judge to declare a contract unenforcable if he believes the terms of it are especially unjust, even if there is nothing otherwise wrong with the contract.

I just hope he never has financial difficulty and is unable to pay this. I read a story in the Pittsburgh City Paper awhile back talking about how many times Pennsylvania men who are broke and unable to pay their exorbirant child support payments are thrown in jail by Pennsylvania judges, giving us a new 21st century version of debtor's prisons.

	24-07-2004 19:17									#32
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At the end of the article the woman's lawyer states that there was never any reason to believe that an agreement had been made, so evidently there was some degree of contention over the validiity of the defendant's claim.
The statement regarding the possibility that this decision might affect sperm donors in other situations came from a legal expert who may not have a connection to this case.

	24-07-2004 19:25									#33
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quote: Despite an agreement that appeared to be a binding contract

	24-07-2004 19:35									#34
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quote: Firstly, verbal contract that she has decided to go back on, though thats not a legal argument, just an ethical one. Secondly, the sperm was provided on an anonymous basis, and whereas the man is responsible for his ejaculation leading to conception, his ejaculation here did not, and it was her actions and that of her doctors ( ) that lead to conception. Effectively, she's taken his DNA and misused it under the terms of their agreement, or rather broken the terms of that agreement where he merely provides his sperm and is not responsible for the ensuing pregnancy.

So would have been different if they just had sex, and she agreed before that not to ask for child support?

	24-07-2004 20:18									#35
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THIS IS REDICULOUS! SHE SHOULD BE EXECUTED, DUMB *****!

	24-07-2004 20:18									#36
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Has anyone ever sued condom maker for faulty product?

	24-07-2004 20:42									#37
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I have to agree with the principle, even though I don't like the consequences for this one man. But if you allow two people to absolve the male of financial responsibility for offspring simply through a verbal contract, then you are going to have MILLIONS of stupid little girls telling guys they meet that they won't have to pay for any kids that might result from their liasons, and that's just asking for trouble.

	24-07-2004 20:52									#38
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The real question is what effect this ruling might have on Sperm Donations to clinics if it holds.

	24-07-2004 20:57									#39
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Not a lot, if sperm donation clinics contain a simple clause for those involved that the donor will never have to pay child support. And if they don't, then any man who donates is being as stupid as a Guardian journalist trying to sneak into the US to do illicit interviews.

	24-07-2004 21:00									#40
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How would that clause be any less oppossed to the "equitable and moral principles" the judges used to decide this case?

	24-07-2004 21:10									#41
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Because it's an anonymous donation overseen by a third party organisation, not a private agreement between two individuals who have had a sexual relationship. the two methods are different enough for there to be a distinction. This is pretty obvious stuff.

	24-07-2004 22:11									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie But if you allow two people to absolve the male of financial responsibility for offspring simply through a verbal contract,

In fact, some sort of contract should be required so that the guy DOES have to take care of the baby. It's not the man's fault that she agreed to have sex with him. She alone made the decision that it was an acceptable risk.

	24-07-2004 22:13									#43
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What a dumb-assed judge!

	24-07-2004 22:22									#44
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quote: In fact, some sort of contract should be required so that the guy DOES have to take care of the baby. It's not the man's fault that she agreed to have sex with him. She alone made the decision that it was an acceptable risk.

And so did he. I don't think that the current situation where the man is to have none of the choices is right, but neither is the other way around. I think it should be split down the middle.

	24-07-2004 22:23									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker In fact, some sort of contract should be required so that the guy DOES have to take care of the baby. It's not the man's fault that she agreed to have sex with him. She alone made the decision that it was an acceptable risk.

This was a new one, I think.

On the DAF, there's been this long debate about the supposed unfairness in the fact that while a man implicitly agrees to pay support for any child resulting from a sexual act, a woman can always get out by having an abortion. I should perhaps introduce this idea there, just to see the fireworks ...

	24-07-2004 22:29									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: In fact, some sort of contract should be required so that the guy DOES have to take care of the baby. It's not the man's fault that she agreed to have sex with him. She alone made the decision that it was an acceptable risk. And so did he.

Uh, not quite. Here's an example: you want to buy a stock. You take a risk that the price will go down. Is it the seller's fault if you lose money?

	24-07-2004 22:37									#47
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So did the man actually even get to have sex out of all of this?

	24-07-2004 22:39									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Uh, not quite. Here's an example: you want to buy a stock. You take a risk that the price will go down. Is it the seller's fault if you lose money?

Might be, if he had inside info that the stock was gonna go down. Kinda like when Bush sold his Harken stock.

	24-07-2004 23:21									#49
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I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the ruling, just because we really don't know all the facts of the case, but he should have gotten whatever agreement they had in writing.

	24-07-2004 23:23									#50
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Given that the Court appears to have acknowledged the existance of the verbal contract and trew it out anyway. What difference would that have made?

	24-07-2004 23:24									#51
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Given that the Court appears to have acknowledged the existance of the verbal contract and trew it out anyway. What difference would that have made?

quote: Ferguson's lawyer, Elizabeth Hoffman, said there was never evidence of an agreement between the two in which McKiernan would not have to pay any support.

If it's drawn up properly in writing, there's concrete evidence.

	25-07-2004 01:05									#52
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quote: So would have been different if they just had sex, and she agreed before that not to ask for child support?

Yes it would have been different. My point is that the doner had no part or responsibility in the conception. The fact that it was his sperm being used is incidental, since it was the woman that was impregnating herself. Furthermore, the man provided the sperm to her on certain grounds, that should she have kids as a consequence she would not come to him for money, and she has now gone back on her word . There are thus two arguments against her. The fact that he had no part to play in the impregnation and no responsibility over, for, or contributing to the conception (her actions and hers alone that lead directly to it). The second is the agreement that while of questionable legal value (I assume it can't be verified unless they both agree on the words spoken... in which case it is solid) still means she is dishonest for obtaining his sperm on what are now false pretenses.

	25-07-2004 01:07									#53
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He had as much to do with it as any man has to do with conceiving a child - if he hadn't donated the sperm, she couldn't have had his baby.

	25-07-2004 01:08									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Tattila the Hun Now, if this would be from sperm bank, I'd be concerned. But it was just a verbal agreenment. From what we know, they might just have engaged in... uhm, break-up sex, and when the woman informed of the little misshap, the guy quickly made up this story. Allways write your deals down, word is nothing these days.

That pretty much sums it up.

	25-07-2004 01:13									#55
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quote: Might be, if he had inside info that the stock was gonna go down. Kinda like when Bush sold his Harken stock.

Best thread jackever, you and Cuchi!

	25-07-2004 01:15									#56
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Might be, if he had inside info that the stock was gonna go down. Kinda like when Bush sold his Harken stock.

Ok, then he's only responsible if he deliberatel broke the condom that's the only "insider trading" I can think of when it comes to the odds of producing a baby...

	25-07-2004 01:22									#57
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I agree with the court that he should pay child support. Same thing with sperm donors at a sperm bank. Otherwise, the supporter of last resort -- the state -- will get stuck with the tab, sooner or later.

	25-07-2004 01:37									#58
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So a woman can lie and decieve a man and it's A.O.K. with you? If they had an agreement where she knew what she was doing but wanted to go ahead any way then it's her fault not his. He shouldn't have to pay a dime.

	25-07-2004 02:04									#59
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Agreements can't dissolve somebody of their responsibility in this matter. The agreement should not be recognized by the law, just as is the case with innumerable other contract provisions.

Deceipt is no defense. As things stand now, if a woman lies and says she is on the pill, you have sex with her, and a child results, then you're on the hook for child support. Since 10 or 15 years ago in the US, the government will hound you mercilessly until you pay.

Remember the "deadbeat dads" political issue? This is the result.

	25-07-2004 02:25									#60
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So in your opinion a sperm donor in a clinic should still be forced to pay?