25-07-2004 02:36									#61
	Tired of ads?

quote: I agree with the court that he should pay child support. Same thing with sperm donors at a sperm bank.

	25-07-2004 02:45									#62
	Remove this text

That's just morally wrong.

	25-07-2004 02:51									#63
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Why so?

They took on the responsibility when they donated the sperm. It's nobody else's fault that they were undercompensated for taking on this responsibility.

The act of having sex doesn't make a man's responsiblity greater.

	25-07-2004 02:54									#64
	Increase Your PM Length

I'm glad most civilized states disagree with you.

	25-07-2004 02:56									#65
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I will answer any reasonable argument.

	25-07-2004 03:06									#66
	Full PM-box? Change here!

We are at a fundimental impass. I believe a written contract should be kept and that the man has no obligation if the agreement is willingly entered by both parties. You believe it is ok to stick thousands of donors with child support even though the contracts were signed.

That's morally wrong.

	25-07-2004 03:12									#67
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Deceipt is no defense. As things stand now, if a woman lies and says she is on the pill, you have sex with her, and a child results, then you're on the hook for child support. Since 10 or 15 years ago in the US, the government will hound you mercilessly until you pay.

Call me a masculinist or whatever, but that's just unfair.

	25-07-2004 03:13									#68
	Remove this text

Agreements are agreements, but that doesn't make them legally enforceable. The law has to look out for the greater good of the child and of society.

Let's pretend the following: a man has sex with a woman, but beforehand he asks whether he would be on the hook for child support if a child results, and she says no. Should the man be on the hook for child support?

quote: Call me a masculinist or whatever, but that's just unfair.

Sure, it's unfair as hell. But the more just solution is to make the guy pay. I don't think there's a state in the union that wouldn't make the guy pay.

	25-07-2004 03:19									#69
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

This has liuttle to do with sperm bank donations as has already been said. When you donate to a sperm bank as an annonimous donor, you have essentially rmeoved any responsibility you will have towards that offspring, specially since you will nevfer know if you had a child, how many, and with whom.

In this case the two people knew each other-none of the annonimity of most normal sperm donations existed. Of course the law will treat this very differently.

	25-07-2004 03:20									#70
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Sure, it's unfair as hell. But the more just solution is to make the guy pay.

How so?

	25-07-2004 03:26									#71
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: How so?

A child results that has to be taken care of. Should the man be able to foist that responsibility on anybody else? As stated, the taxpayers will have to spend the money, if nobody else does.

In the end, society's interests are protected and the child's interests are protected by requiring that the man pay, if he can.

	25-07-2004 03:29									#72
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: When you donate to a sperm bank as an annonimous donor, you have essentially rmeoved any responsibility you will have towards that offspring, specially since you will nevfer know if you had a child, how many, and with whom.

What's the magic wand that removes this responsibility? Anonymity isn't it because I can give cases where it would be clear that the man retains responsbility despite anonymity. Ignorance of whether, how many, and with whom isn't it because I can give cases where it would be clear where the man retains responsibility despite these factors. And as explored above, contracts may not be enforceable.

	25-07-2004 03:32									#73
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: In the end, society's interests are protected and the child's interests are protected.

Wouldn't an abortion solve the problem? or in many cases, a morning after pill? Of course, it's harming the mother's rights, and I am not for that, but noone seems to care about harming men's rights.

Men get in this affair no rights at all, it seems.

	25-07-2004 03:34									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by DanS What's the magic wand that removes this responsibility? Anonymity isn't it because I can give cases where it would be clear that the man retains responsbility despite anonymity. Ignorance of whether, how many, and with whom isn't it because I can give cases where it would be clear where the man retains responsibility despite these factors.

The fact that the man who donated sperm has 0 control over whether its used, with whom it is used, and so forth. his decision was to donate sperm TO A BUSINESS becuase there is a demand for it. This case is about a supposed one on one deal between two individuals.

	25-07-2004 03:35									#75
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Wouldn't an abortion solve the problem? or in many cases, a morning after pill? Of course, it's harming the mother's rights, and I am not for that, but noone seems to care about harming men's rights.

I don't agree that it's a woman's right to have an abortion, so I see no conflict.

	25-07-2004 03:36									#76
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: A child results that has to be taken care of. Should the man be able to foist that responsibility on anybody else? As stated, the taxpayers will have to spend the money, if nobody else does.

He isn't foisting anything. He's been legally absolved.

	25-07-2004 03:37									#77
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: He had as much to do with it as any man has to do with conceiving a child - if he hadn't donated the sperm, she couldn't have had his baby.

I could jerk off in a blimp and hit a woman masturbating to a Mills & Boon novel in a field below, who proceeds to take advantage of my offering, that's about equivalent to this situation as far as the man is concerned. That completely ignores the contract, whereby she agreed to negate any right to child support, though there should have been no such "right" in the first place for the above reason.

As I said before, the fact that it was a certain mans sperm is incidental, it was the womans doing alone that got her pregnant. Would you say her parents are responsible for feeding her and keeping her alive as a child so she could get pregnant? Perhaps the oxygen in the air has some responsibility for this pregnancy too? Maybe we should blame primival comets for smashing into the Earth billions of years ago providing the water that became her amniotic fluid? Environmental causes do not constitute responsibility over the consequences. That's not just my thoughts. Centuries of manically-depressed existentialists have come to the same conclusion .

quote: A child results that has to be taken care of. Should the man be able to foist that responsibility on anybody else?

Being a sperm doner means you offer your sperm to a woman on the grounds that she can use it to get pregnant. You can attach whatever contractual terms you wish to that sperm and if she complies she can receive it. She broke that.

One of the terms agreed was the negation on his part of his responsibility to pay for that child. Rightfully there should be no such obligatory responsibility as it is the mother that is entirely in charge of the conception, whereas with "natural" fertilisation it is a joint effort, the consequences are the direct result of both persons actions and thus responsibility is shared.

quote: Call me a masculinist or whatever, but that's just unfair.

Well said! And no that's not being masculinist, that's being reasonable.

	25-07-2004 03:37									#78
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: The fact that the man who donated sperm has 0 control over whether its used, with whom it is used, and so forth. his decision was to donate sperm TO A BUSINESS becuase there is a demand for it. This case is about a supposed one on one deal between two individuals.

He has the ultimate control over how his sperm is used. He can either provide it or not.

	25-07-2004 03:40									#79
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: He isn't foisting anything. He's been legally absolved.

Says who? She is unable to absolve him of his responsibilities.

	25-07-2004 03:42									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

In nearly every state she does.

	25-07-2004 03:43									#81
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: I don't agree that it's a woman's right to have an abortion, so I see no conflict.

Ahh, well, at least then it makes sense.

	25-07-2004 03:43									#82
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: He has the ultimate control over how his sperm is used. He can either provide it or not.

No. He gave it to her on certain grounds but when she used it she broke those grounds. Note that is not an argument of legality, since I don't know the legal strength of that argument, but I know it's ethical strength to both parties is as strong as any written one. Scribed or verbal is merely a question of external verification hence the legal issue therein. Unless we men have secret powers I'm unaware of, he can't order his swimmers by proxy to "lay down their arms" and go for a joint, so the fact that it was his sperm is irrelevant.

	25-07-2004 03:47									#83
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: In nearly every state she does.

I don't know this to be true. Can you give me a reference?

quote: but I know it's ethical strength to both parties is as strong as any written one

The state inserts itself into such situations to protect the interests of the child and of the state. The agreement is only among two of the four protaganists and is weighted accordingly.

	25-07-2004 04:05									#84
	Put an end to popups!

Interesting.

I agree with DanS on this issue.

The man should be held responsible for the child he conceived, regardless of the mode of conception.

quote: If it is established that men cannot donate sperm without fear of being hit with a child support payment, men will not donate sperm and women will lose the ability to get pregnant this way should they choose.

I don't see any problem here. Seems reasonable to me.

	25-07-2004 04:06									#85
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Sava What a dumb-assed judge!

How so?

It's a he said/she said.

He could be lying for all we know. there probably was no verbal agreement in the first place.

	25-07-2004 04:09									#86
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Interesting. I agree with DanS on this issue. The man should be held responsible for the child he conceived, regardless of the mode of conception. I don't see any problem here. Seems reasonable to me.

while ideally that sounds good, our entire society is based on contracts. If a contract cannot be enforced, what good is it.

In this case I side with the judge, as there is no way to tell if they had a verbal contract or not.

It's this guy's dumbass fault for not getting it in writing. Next time he'll learn.

	25-07-2004 04:11									#87
	Remove this text

I'm happy I can't get laid and therefore have no chance whatsoever of impregnating a woman.

I'm happier this way than if I was having sex with women. I'm much more financially secure.

	25-07-2004 04:13									#88
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: The state inserts itself into such situations to protect the interests of the child and of the state. The agreement is only among two of the four protaganists and is weighted accordingly.

No, two of those "protagonists" were a consequence of the contract between the two protagnoist... the doner and the parent. Their needs are of no consequence to the question of responsibility. If the only argument that can be leveed against this view is that "it's leaching off society" by having benefits being paid to this woman then that is a pretty weak argument, since the necessary conclusion and prediction of that logical sequence of that is that we shouldn't have benefits for such people at all (unacceptable in my view) and that those who's actions present an environmental/indirect/accidental/unintional etc cause should contribute nonetheless (presumably if they are able to do so). That very Marxist idea is wholly unworkable and frankly ridiculous. I crave consistency in such ideas, and to be consistent here one would have to blame Plato for Hitler! I use that analogy far too often

	25-07-2004 04:17									#89
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: I don't see any problem here. Seems reasonable to me.

I think I speak for most of OT where I say that if its anti-sex, anti-women, biblephile, inconsistent or completely unworkable, we're be more suprised if you didn't find it "reasonable"

quote: In this case I side with the judge, as there is no way to tell if they had a verbal contract or not.

Apparently they both agreed? Or did I skim read it wrong? In any case, if they did agree, thats ok as far as the court is concerned is my eyes, though they may stipulate written. That is irrelevant however, I'm making an ethical, not a legal argument.

quote: I'm happier this way than if I was having sex with women. I'm much more financially secure.

That's fine, but many people don't feel that way.

	25-07-2004 04:22									#90
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Whaleboy: We have an environmental law here in the States called CERCLA, whereby it is impossible to foist responsibility for your pollution onto somebody else through a contract. The greater justice requires a company to pay for its pollution, even though it believes it has signed those responsibilities away. Companies are required to pay, even if there is no certain knowledge of how much they polluted or if the company knew where it did its polluting.

This has nothing to do with an overbearing state, or Marxism, or whatever. It's entirely workable.