26-07-2004 07:47									#91
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My theory remains, as it always has, that even visiting any site in the Middle East instantly makes you insane.

	26-07-2004 07:49									#92
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom If only. St Jerome: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08341a.htm Tertullian: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14520c.htm St Paul: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm Thomas Aquinas: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14663b.htm all key figures in early and mediaeval Christianity. All with, ah, 'issues', about women. Pat Robertson is a national religious and political figure in the United States. Doesn't mean he's credible, but he has a national profile and a network of followers and fellow believers.

I ment exceptions as in very few Christians think like that today. Why do you keep bringing up all these old Christian nuts? How is it relevant?

I think I'll just quote Dissident:

quote: we cannot deny the horrors of christianity in the past. truelly disgraceful. but the fact is some people have become more civilized, and others haven't.

	26-07-2004 07:56									#93
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What a dumb thread, but with its kind of origins, what can you expect?

As a universalistic religion Islam, like Christianity, has to adapt to local norms to take hold. If many Islamic parts of the world are anti-women it is not solely if at all becuase of the teachings in the book, BUT becuase the cultures to which it spread were chauvanistic ones. Christianity in Africa is no less chauvinistic. You don;t seem Islamic states in which large numbers of people abort the girls cause they are less valuable than boys, like you see in China....

The problem of course is thinking words written in 680 ad. in terms of social value are relevant in 2004 ad.

	26-07-2004 08:42									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf I ment exceptions as in very few Christians think like that today. Why do you keep bringing up all these old Christian nuts? How is it relevant? I think I'll just quote Dissident:

Because you don't bring up any modern Muslims like for instance my friend Shirin, who doesn't wear a veil, or a burqa, or an aba, has her own job, her own car and doesn't espouse the violent overthrow of the United States or Great Britain.

It's very easy to say all Muslims are like this, or like that, but not actually provide any evidence.

I bring up the ancient and mediaeval Christians to show how little the thinking of some modern day Christians has changed with respect to the status of women.

Not everyone is fortunate enough to have been brought up in a tolerant Lutheran Scandinavian country.

You only have to see what some of those modern day Christianistas have to say about homosexuality for instance, to see how very much in touch with the spirits of Tertullian and St. Jerome they are.

And I don't mean that in a complimentary way, either.

How many Muslims do you know personally, Gangerolf?

How many countries with an Arab or Islamic culture have you visited, just out of curiousity?

	26-07-2004 10:00									#95
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Diss,

There's always the Lord's Resistance Army

quote: The LRA continued to kill, torture, maim, rape, and abduct large numbers of civilians, virtually enslaving numerous children. Although its levels of activity diminished somewhat compared with 1997, the area that the LRA targeted grew.

Surely Christian crackpots are still alive and kicking, unfortunately.

quote: The LRA rebels say they are fighting for the establishment of a government based on the biblical Ten Commandments. They are notorious for kidnapping children and forcing them to become rebel fighters or concubines.

	26-07-2004 10:16									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa Male paradise I think they need some more fem-power.

All muslim women could try withholding sex until they get equal rights.

	26-07-2004 10:22									#97
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There is a serious problem which those of use who dismiss the radical nature of Islam are not dealing with. There are large numbers of radical Islamic militants and the scariest thign is that they are right. Yes, if one really reads the Koran it explicitely tells muslims to kill nonbelievers and to continue attacking them until the agree to convert. This is the religion as written in it's holy book. This problem is not going to go away; Islam itself is the source of the problem.

	26-07-2004 10:27									#98
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I suppose you are seeing that first hand right now... Be careful.

	26-07-2004 10:31									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin There is a serious problem which those of use who dismiss the radical nature of Islam are not dealing with. There are large numbers of radical Islamic militants and the scariest thign is that they are right. Yes, if one really reads the Koran it explicitely tells muslims to kill nonbelievers and to continue attacking them until the agree to convert. This is the religion as written in it's holy book. This problem is not going to go away; Islam itself is the source of the problem.

That's your interpretation, Oerdin. Many Islamic believers and clerics hold it otherwise.

	26-07-2004 11:12									#100
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A

The laws of the Bible are given to the Jews about 3000 years ago. It was the constitutional law for them. It was a very very civilized law for those days.
The bible doesn't put this law on todays society. Pete even says in the bible that we should obey todays laws.

The laws of the bible are not given to todays christians.
That there are christians who claim so doesn't mean this is what the bible teaches.

If someone disagrees: tell me in this thread were in the Bible the christians are commanded to keep the laws of Moses?

Acts 15:10
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

Galations 5:13-14
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

in short: the laws of the Old Testament are given to the jews who lived 3000 years ago. Not to us.
NEITHER does the Bible tell the christians to force others to live to these laws. Neither by converting them nor by killing them or pushing them by force.

B
A christian who's a murder because he hates someone isn't a murder because he's a christian.
There have been and still are millions of murders who are christians. They do not murder because they're christians, they murder despite they're christians. The Bible says that christians are not better then non-christians. We are murderers as well

If an anti-abortion terrorist kills abortion-doctors, he's mainly murdering because he's against abortion.
Not because he's a christian. Of course his anti-abortion idea comes from his christian background. But the Bible doesn't tell people to kill abortion-doctors.
The Bible even says to not kill at all but love the other men.

There have been millions of christians, mainly in the past, who have killed in name of christianity though.
Unfortunately indeed. I'm really sorry for that.
But it is clear to everyone who reads the bible that they did not have any biblical right to do so.

They didn't follow the teachings of the bible when they murdered those people.
People who don't do what the bible tells them to do can hardly be named christians. Even if they call themselves christians.

You can't compare christianity for that reason with the islam.
The islam does call for jihad. There are different interpertations on what jihad means. but a large ammount of the muslims does support the terrorists in these days.
People were cheering, even here in Holland, on 9/11.

I am aware that the majority of the muslims, for sure in western countries, is against these terrorists.
But no-one can deny that a lare piece of the muslims worldwide does support terrorism.

Only someone with an anti-christian background can seriously try to compare christianity and christians with muslims on this.
And sadly the group of these people is growing.

Oh well, that's what the bible already predicted 2000 years ago.

	26-07-2004 11:19									#101
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy I am aware that the majority of the muslims, for sure in western countries, is against these terrorists.

If the peaceful majority doesn't do anything then they are complicit.

	26-07-2004 11:27									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 If the peaceful majority doesn't do anything then they are complicit.

Pherhaps the peacefull majority can't do anything....
I wish I could do something about the North-Ireland situation....

speaking about the north-ireland situation, it's really not fair to put that on the 'christian plate'.
They are using catholicism / protestantism only to work out their differences. The real problem is a social class difference. They even use palestinian (roman catholic) and israelian (protestants) flags. Does that mean that the north-ireland situation involved jews and palestinians?

*if* the people in north-ireland would be christians they would stop the fight and be the least-person, as the bible tells christians to be. If they continue fighting they apparantly are not following their own religion, so that religion can't be blamed for it.

If I tell my friend not to murder, and he still murders, am I responsible for that?

	26-07-2004 13:59									#103
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I guess it can be said then that those who are fighting in N. Ireland will be going to hell. Perhaps the same for those who just stand aside and do nothing. Perhaps the Pope can excommunicate the IRA and any Catholic involved and the Archbishop of Canterbury can pronounce some sort of anathema on any Protestants involved (assuming they are all Anglican). Both sides at the very least should follow the examples set by Jesus (render unto Caesar, turn the other cheek, and all that).

On the other hand, there is no Islamic pope-like figure. I believe whatever equivalent figures there are do have the responsibility to bring things under control or they too are complicit (and eventually by implication Islam itself).

If you tell your friend not to murder yet he does then you are not responsible for the murder. However, if you know he is a murderer and do not help to bring him to justice then you are complicit in that murder.

	26-07-2004 14:00									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 If the peaceful majority doesn't do anything then they are complicit.

A majority might not be terrorist, but they appreciate what the hijackers on 11/9 did.

	26-07-2004 14:11									#105
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Vince:

There is no leadership in the sunni muslim ummah (community of believers). the Caliphate was ended by Kamal Ataturk in 1922 so there is no leadership. The Sunnis have always been a congregationalist and individualistic faith so there is no priesthood in Sunni Islam... the closest thing to a religious leader are the mullahs, but these are just learned men who primarily teach religious schools and lead prayers at the mosque (though any muslim can lead prayers so the mullahs aren't exactly priests)

the most learned and respected of the mullahs are called imams. These are not to be confused with the Shiite imams which are messianic religious leaders. The Shiites also have Ayatollahs that are essentially prophets (though according to dogma, the last prophet, of course, was Mohammed)

	26-07-2004 14:25									#106
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I understand all that. Hard to call it an organized religion if everyone can do what they want within loose guidelines. The root of the problem (and the solution) may lay with whatever binds them together.

I thought it was heresy to say there are prophets after Mohammed. Wouldn't that make Shites apostate and therefore under a death sentence according to the Koran? Sounds like Islam has been plagued with problems since its inception.

	26-07-2004 14:44									#107
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well yeah... to the Sunnis, the shiites are apostates and heretics. vice versa if you ask the shiites.

but yeah SUNNI islam is a very individualistic religion with a loose ummah. the daily ritual of prayers is done on an individual basis and there is only group religious activity on friday mosque (though this isnt mandatory) and on pilgrimages. The idea is that nothing should come between an individual and God, not even a priest so Sunni islam is priestless. It's likely many founders of protestant churches took a page from Islam when they were organizing their churches.

Until the fall of the Ottoman Empire, the Caliphate had both religious and secular power but it was always tenious ever since Maiwaya (son of the long-term rival of Mohammed) and Ali (Mohammed's son in law) fought over the caliphate... the result was schisms which caused the Sunni/Shiite/Ismaili divide but also caused there to be a number of caliphs (caliph of baghdad, caliph of damascus, of egypt, of spain, and so on). What should have been a powerful leader controlling both religious and political affairs became a figure head to emirs and sultans.

	26-07-2004 14:45									#108
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i think spink is just mad that muslims prohibit the drinking of alcohol... that's your real beef with islam, isn't it, spink?

	26-07-2004 14:54									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer It's likely many founders of protestant churches took a page from Islam when they were organizing their churches.

I've sometimes noticed the similarities too.

I'm pretty good on the historical aspects of Islam. On the great schism I'd have to say the Shite claim to the caliphate was more valid.

	26-07-2004 14:57									#110
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more valid? having all the caliphs be descendents of Mohammed as opposed to the Sunni way of electing the caliph? The Shiite way of choosing the caliph, their mysticism, and their mythology of the 12 imams, make the Shiites a regressive force in Islam

	26-07-2004 15:06									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer more valid? having all the caliphs be descendents of Mohammed as opposed to the Sunni way of electing the caliph? The Shiite way of choosing the caliph, their mysticism, and their mythology of the 12 imams, make the Shiites a regressive force in Islam

Descendent caliphs was how it started. Pre- and post- schism Shiites were more or less like the rest at the time and then (from a Sunni point of view) degenerated into something more cult-like. Hard to say what would have happened if there was no schism.

	26-07-2004 15:18									#112
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no descendent caliphs was not how it started... Abu Bekr, the first caliph, was Mohammed's father-in-law... his hand-picked successor, Umar, was not even related at all to Mohammed's line. Umar arranged for a group of six men to choose his successor, Uthman, who was of the rival family of Mohammed's, the Umayyads. Uthman was assassinated by supportors of Mohammed's son-in-law, Ali. (the start of the sunni/shiite split) At this point there was no clear Caliph.

In retailiation for the murder of Uthman, the Umayyads, led by Muawiya, killed Ali and Muawiya, having the loyalty of the largest army, couped the caliphate. He was succeeded by his son, Yazid, who was opposed by followers of the dead Ali and followers of ibn Zubayr, a distant relative of Abu Bekr. Yazid was killed and ibn Zubayr's short-lived empire caused the Umayyad caliphate to temporarily collapse... it just gets crazy after that

	26-07-2004 15:21									#113
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Definitely.
I'm going to read up on all that again. Thanks.

	26-07-2004 17:17									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc You mean surgically altered breasts?

Let's have a poll among the words women, and see what percentage would rather have breat implantants than female circumcision.

	26-07-2004 17:31									#115
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quote: Not everyone is fortunate enough to have been brought up in a tolerant Lutheran Scandinavian country.

I find the juxtaposition "tolerant Lutheran" faintly amusing. In the days when Lutheranism had any real influence on Scandinavian state policies, we were if anything exceptionally intolerant.

	26-07-2004 18:29									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler "Anyone who is not a Christian will burn in Hell forever." (kinda makes those Muslims look like a bunch of tolerant peaceniks in comparison, doesn't it? )

For all of their faults the Christians leave the hell and damnation up to god to decide. The Muslims are specifically ordered to go forth and conquor this world. According to the Koran god will not be happy until everyone is forced to live under Islam.

	26-07-2004 18:36									#117
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quote: The only reason the Christian isn't out in the streets dancing and calling for destroying the Muslim heathens is that he's comfortable, in the USA or Europe, reclining in his chair watching, reading, or hearing his familiar TV evangelists and whacko far-right extremist "all non-Christians must die" nutjobs.

Mitchel do you actually believe that load of crap? There is a very, very, very small minority of militant Christians and they are universally abhourd by just about everyone. The militants make up a much larger percentage of muslims and they are vocally supported by a very large minorty of the muslim community. The difference is a matter of scale and acceptance. It's not acceptable in the west but it's A.O.K. for Arafat and numerous other kings & dictators to support Islamic militancy.

The really scary thing is that Islam specifically calls for such militant actions in its scripture. You can argue that most muslims don't follow those part of the scriptures but it is there and since the militant parts of the Koran are at the end then they trump the earlier peaceful parts. In short, strictly speaking, the Islamic militants are right. Islam does call for killing the nonbelievers and attempting to conquor the world.

	26-07-2004 18:51									#118
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom I remember one setting off a bomb in Oklahoma City.

If you remember the case then you may remember they weren't doing it on religious grounds but because they wanted to fight against a government which they felt had usurped powers not granted to it in the constitution. In short they were political wackos and not religious wackos.

quote: All those god fearing folks in the Deep South who happily watched black men dangle from nooses- you think they were Liberals, or Muslims?

A very small minorty ever took part in lynchings and a significant number even opposed them. By and large there were few public displays of support for lynchings (unlike say segregation which is different). How many Arabs were filmed dancing in the streets after 9/11?

quote: Northern Ireland- many mullahs inciting Christians to kill each other there?

Ireland has always been a political fight and not a religious fight. True, the two political groups broke down mostly along sectarian lines but ask most experts about Northern Ireland and most of them will agree the big deal is about politics not religion.

	26-07-2004 18:54									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Christians in Africa

You mean the black christians of southern Sudan which the Arab government wages war on and sells into slavery or the Christians of northern Nigeria who are forced to live under the fundimentalist sharia?

	26-07-2004 18:58									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin A very small minorty ever took part in lynchings and a significant number even opposed them. By and large there were few public displays of support for lynchings (unlike say segregation which is different). How many Arabs were filmed dancing in the streets after 9/11?

A dozen? Two dozen?

a hundred, maybe?

Actually, none that I know of. What we saw following 9/11 on some news networks was stock footage if I remember correctly. But assuming it wasn't, how is a hundred dancing muslims a signifigant portion of the more than a billion muslims in the world?