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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:35
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quote:
Originally posted by GhengisFarb
15 minutes? I've given almost 24 hours, she's replied twice, and hasn't been able to back it up yet.  |
Clearly you either speed read or don't bother to read my replies at all, favouring ypur own intrepretation of what I say.
I posted two links, one mentioning his taking the last rites from a Catholic priest (if he were agnostic, atheist, or Muslim, why bother), the other showing the kind of sewer dwelling Neonazi Aryan CHRISTIANS he associated with- people who shared the same racist beliefs.
Like these people:
'Re: Aryan Nations World Congress 2004
I would have a minor quibble about the use of the term "compound" to describe the church grounds, that was pretty much a jews-media term. Seems anytime the media refers to your church as a "compound", zog destroys/steals it. (Koresh's church in Waco was also called a compound before zog destroyed it)
On the other hand, "compound" scares the lemmings
And what is the story with the "other" CI gathering the same weekend only 165 miles away in Missoula, I see no logic in using the same weekend except to siphon support away from Pastor Butler.'
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/sho...goto=nextoldest
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c113.html
Now is their racism for the greater glory of the CHRISTIAN god?
Or is it simply a political adjunct to their religious belief?
Now why might right wing media outlets in the States not focus on any possible CHRISTIAN connection in Oklahoma City, or Guatemala, or investigate links between right wing CHRISTIANS like Falwell and Robertson and the Guatemalan purveyor of genocide, Rios Montt?
"Ríos Montt apparently blamed his defeat on the Guatemala's Catholic priests, whom he saw as leftist agents (since some questioned the mistreatment of Catholic Mayans). In 1978, he left the Catholic Church and became a minister in the California-based evangelical Church of the Word; since then Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson have been personal friends. Now a born-again CHRISTIAN, he is a Protestant in a predominately Roman Catholic country.
In March 1982, Ríos Montt seized power in a coup d'état that was quietly backed by the CIA and the Reagan administration. Presidential elections had been held earlier in Guatemala on March 7, 1982, by Gen. Angel Aníbal Guevara, the candidate chosen by the outgoing regime. On March 23, the coup dissolved the junta and declared Gen. Efraín Ríos Montt the sole leader and head of the armed forces on June 9.
He and his fellow generals, Maldonando Schadd and Luis Gordillo, deposed Gen. Romeo Lucas Garcia and set up a military tribunal with Montt at its head. The junta immediately suspended the constitution, set up secret tribunals and began a brutal crackdown on political dissidents that featured kidnapping, torture, and extra-judicial assassinations.
Initial hopes that the human rights and security situation might improved under the new president were short-lived and soon shattered. Violence escalated in the countryside, and only a temporary calm was experienced in urban areas. The June amnesty for political prisoners was replaced by a state of siege that limited the activities of political parties and labor unions under the threat of death by firing squad, and the campaign known as frijoles y fusiles ("beans and guns"), initiated by the president in an attempt to "win over" the large indigenous population to the rule of the arm, resulted in a nightmare of chaos and violence, unleashing a scorched earth attack on the nation's Mayan population that, according to a UN commission, resulted in the annihilation of nearly 600 villages. The administration established special military courts that had the power to impose death penalties against suspected uprising peasants. The number of killings in the countryside escalated, and the 'frijoles y fusiles' campaign resulted in widespread fear. Thousands of Guatemalan Mayans fled over the border into Southern Mexico.
In 1982 an Amnesty International report estimated that over 2,600 indigenous Guatemalans and peasant farmers were slaughtered in a "scorched earth" campaign in the March-July period."
http://www.fact-index.com/e/ef/efrain_rios_montt.html
It couldn't be because of an all too obvious contradiction between the CHRISTIAN ideal of 'god is love' and the killing of 2 500 Guatemalan Maya, could it?
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/groupwatch/tcc.php
Or between right wing American CHRISTIANS and terrorists such as Jonas Savimbi in Angola and Renamo in Mozambique, between Pat Robertson and the Zairean dictator Mobutu Sese Seko?
'...last year, as U.S. news media celebrated the overthrow of repressive Communist regimes, they all but ignored an ongoing, massive campaign of almost unbelievable cruelty being waged against the government and people of Mozambique by right-wing terrorists--with material and political support from private individuals and groups in the United States and Europe.
The difference in coverage, observed the November/December 1989 "Utne Reader" seems obviously related to the fact that:
"the government of Mozambique is predominately black and socialist and its chief enemy is the white-ruled anti-communist regime in South Africa.
South Africa initially armed and supported the Mozambique National Resistance, whose methods include not only extensive economic sabotage like blowing up bridges and burning villages--causing widespread famine in this poorest country in the world--but also cruelty aimed at terrorizing people.
Its special targets are children, who are forced to watch the torture and murder of family members, drafted into the army at ages as young as eight, forced to kill other children and villagers, raped and mutilated and separated by the tens of thousands from families and
native villages. Three of every five Mozambican children dies before age five.
Senator Jesse Helms (CHRISTIAN), who calls RENAMO "freedom fighters," television evangelist Pat Robertson (CHRISTIAN) and the Washington-based Heritage Foundation, are among the U.S. citizens giving political or financial support to RENAMO."
http://wiretap.area.com/Gopher/Libr...hts/censored.89
Could it be because Rios Montt was part of a growing Americanized Evengelical CHRISTIAN presence in previously Roman Catholic Central and South America?
Could it be because thinking about all the traumatized limbless Mozambican children, all the orphaned Angolan children, all the needlessly dead in southern Africa linked to the terrorists, oh, sorry, Jesse Helms, 'freedom fighters' of Unita and Renamo, is just too difficult to square with the image these people like to give out of being god fearing down home CHRISTIANS?
http://wiretap.area.com/Gopher/Libr...hts/censored.89
Oh and Oerdin, don't patronize me. Someone who thinks the conflict in Northern Ireland is simply political is way off base.
How many Ulster Protestants do you know? How many have you talked to, to find out what they believe about the Pope and Catholics?
These are otherwise perfectly ordinary sane people who believe you can tell someone's religion by LOOKING AT THEM.
People too frightened to walk through predominantly Catholic areas of cities and towns because THEY THINK IT WILL BE POSSIBLE TO SEE THEY ARE PROTESTANT.
People who refuse to talk to their sons or daughters if they date or marry Catholics, or vice versa.
People like the Reverend Ian Paisley.
Can you tell the difference at a glance between a Catholic and Protestant?
At close range, under a microscope, from a blood sample?
There is a reason it's called Ulster 'Protestant' Unionism, you know, and it isn't because it's just a political movement- it's sectarian too, as a look at the CAIN Project's list of deaths would inform you.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
Do you know the diffence between a specific example and a generalization? Apparently not. |
Do you know the difference between sectarian and political? Or that the two may be combined?
Apparently not.
'Since the 1880s, many Ulster PROTESTANTS had become increasingly concerned about the possible establishment of home rule for Ireland. They prepared for resistance.
From 1918, Ulster PROTESTANTS increasingly settled for a fall-back position and set out to ensure that the northern counties of Ireland, at least, should be excluded from any Home Rule arrangements. The 1920 Government of Ireland Act, which came into effect in the following year, recognised and confirmed their position by partitioning the island.
Emergency legislation was introduced on a permanent basis; a police force and police reserve was established which was almost exclusively PROTESTANT; local government electoral boundaries were openly gerrymandered, a stratagem also used by (CATHOLIC)nationalists when they were able to do so; and a system of economic discrimination was introduced against the CATHOLIC minority in Northern Ireland. This minority formed about one third of the population for most of the twentieth century, and currently represents around 40 per cent.
The DUP holds all these positions more extremely than the UUP, and also is more preoccupied with the power of the CATHOLIC church. In 1994 the leader of the UUP was James Molyneaux, and Ian Paisley led the DUP.
CATHOLICS are much more likely to be unemployed than are PROTESTANTS, more than twice as likely in the case of males.
1973-74: The power-sharing Executive, which lasted for three months, remains Northern Ireland's only experience of a government shared by CATHOLICS and PROTESTANTS. It attempted to construct a devolved system based on power-sharing between PROTESTANTS and CATHOLICS, and on a Council of Ireland to regulate affairs between the two parts of Ireland. It was opposed by the Democratic Unionist Party and most of the Ulster Unionist party, but eventually was brought down through a PROTESTANT workers' strike in May 1974. '
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/facets.htm
" Bobby Moore, 18, Protestant
"Catholics hate Protestants. Protestants hate Catholics. It's sort of a love-hate relationship, but there is no love."
"I wouldn't move to England (if the Catholics were in power). I would stand and fight for our country."
Samantha Doherty, 18, Catholic
"My brother went for a job interview recently. They asked him his name. They can tell (your religion) just by your name. He was wearing a cross and he said his name. They just looked at him and said, 'No, you're not what we're looking for."
"I wasn't surprised. I was annoyed because he really needs a job, and it's not like he's gonna get anything either. It's just typical."
Bobby Moore
"We throw bricks, bottles, petrol bombs, anything we can get our hands on."
"It's just the point of trying to hurt them. They would do the same thing to us. We go down to the bottom of our road and there's nothing but a 25- or 30-foot distance that keeps us apart."
Oria Murphy, 16, Catholic
"Geographically, there's a number of things that could unite a country and a number of things that should divide it. The main things dividing the country are religion and politics."
"You can't feel safe. They seem to be in a deadlock. I hope to God (!) there will be peace for the next generation.
"You'd expect the politicians to do as much as they possibly can for peace." "
http://www.malignani.ud.it/theWebWeWant/ireland.html
"After the Partition of Ireland in 1920, sporadic violence continued between the two communities. The violence was cyclic in nature and often coincided with downturns in the local economy (e.g., riots during the depression of the 1930s). Conversely, when the economy picked up, as it did in the post-war years, ethnic violence subsided; for example, during a peak of the economy in the 1950s, the Irish Republican Army (IRA) was unable to launch a successful bid for secession due to apathy in the Catholic community (Darby 1976, 13). The pattern of separate settlements, school districts, and employment, however, continued as before.
The physical segregation of the two communities can be attributed to various reasons, not all of which stem from a fear of violence. For instance, as most schooling is conducted by religious denomination, it makes sense for Protestant and Catholic families to find housing closer to their schools. Church attendance is high in Northern Ireland, with the church community providing the structure for social interaction. In addition, marriages in Northern Ireland primarily take place with people from the same local area, creating elaborate family-based structures that tend to be exclusionary and segregated (Darby 1976, 37). These trends tend to isolate and insulate local communities from outside influences, preserving old attitudes towards outsiders and considerable conformity within the community.
Like most cultural differences, the roots of the Protestant-Catholic enmity in Northern Ireland are buried in the distant past, with fresh incidents only serving to reopen old wounds and solidify negative stereotypes. The siege mentality of the Unionists continues to stem from the fortified townships in which they were forced to live following the 'Plantation' of 1609. Thus, each new threat is perceived as dire, within the context of brutal pogroms which took place hundreds of years before. For example, in 1964, the Unionists rioted in response to the legal Nationalist opposition party flying the Irish Tricolour, rather than the Union Jack, from their local headquarters in Belfast (Darby 1976, 14).
The IRA was able to re-establish itself and its military methods in 1969 / 1970, as a result of the rising frustrations of the Catholic populace, rather than the continuing ethnic hatreds between the two communities. Many authors have noted that violence in Northern Ireland stems from reactions to real (or perceived) discrimination between the two groups. This discrimination has a long historical record, dating to the fifteenth century when it was sanctioned as a tool to pacify an occupied land and settle a Protestant populace who would prove more loyal to the Crown than its Catholic inhabitants.
Religion and education in Northern Ireland have been linked for almost the entirety of Irish history and remain so today. Due to persecution after the victory of William of Orange, Catholics have been deeply suspicious of state involvement in education and have fought to retain church control of their own schools. Likewise, the Protestant community has argued against the secularisation of the educational system, successfully defeating proposals that were suggested immediately following Partition to integrate the school system and place religious education on a voluntary after-school basis (Darby 1976, 126).
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/landon.htm
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General Ludd
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Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
I say it yet again just to make sure you actually get it. What makes Islam an unpeaceful religion is the text of what is in the Koran not the actions of individuals. If one really follows the Koran then they are supposed to go out and conquor the world and force everyone to live under the Sharia. They aren't supposed to force people to convert but they must act like a Muslim and they must be ruled by Muslims. That's not peaceful. |
That's your interpretation of it. The same interpretations can be made of the bible, and the opposite for each aswell. Along with dozens of other interpretations. But your assertion that Islam incites violence does not reflect the reality that the majority of muslims are not violent.
When confronted with this conundrum, all you have been able to do was point to arabs dancing in the street on 9/11 as an example of the entire muslim faith.
Last edited by General Ludd on 27-07-2004 at 04:47
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
A very small minorty ever took part in lynchings and a significant number even opposed them. By and large there were few public displays of support for lynchings (unlike say segregation which is different). How many Arabs were filmed dancing in the streets after 9/11?
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'When word of the lynching spread, CROWDS gathered to see the body hanging from a tree. Photographs were taken, one of which later became a souvenir postcard. Several onlookers began to inflict violence to Frank's body but a former judge, Newt Morris, convinced them to stop.
No one was ever prosecuted for the lynching of Leo Frank. Not a single resident stepped forward, nor were the participants who were clearly photographed identified at the time by local law enforcement officials.'
http://www.campusprogram.com/refere.../leo_frank.html
"The 1909 murder of Will James was carried out in front of a crowd of THOUSANDS gathered beneath a cosmopolitan street arch with electric lights. "
(From my previous post)
I'd say you were about as far down denial as its source.
For the perpetrators of the murders by lynching to escape lawful punishment, must have meant collusion on a large scale by witnesses, residents of white communities and the agents of law enforcement such as that retired judge.
The fact that people could expect to make a profit from the sale of SOUVENIR POSTCARDS of murder tells us a lot about community standards with regards to the status of black men (and Jews and Catholics for that matter) and how such crimes against them were viewed.
Sins of commission, sins of omission.
Sorry Ghengis, if my posts are a little too long on fact for you. It comes from having a high quality Socialist education.
I don't favour the Encyclopaedia Brotannica by the way.
Too Americanized now, and not enough detail.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:35
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what yall dont seem to realize is that Islam is the only one of the semitic/abrahamic faiths that is truly universal. Other so-called universal religions (like Christianity) still insist salvation is only possible through Christ and living as Christ commanded.
Islam is far different though as it conceeds the legitimacy of Christianity and Judaism. God gave the true faith to the Jews and the Christians but they corrupted it a bit for various reasons. The Jews, to the muslims, were too concerned with the laws and spiritless ritual... the Christians were too concerned with the great prophet Jesus, worshipping him as a God.
Such corruptions though are not seen as heretical. The basic message in Judaism and Christianity, the koran says, is truthful enough and is as God intended so, putting aside some aspects of both faiths, good Christians and Jews will have paradise...
i don't think yall appreciate how startling and groundbreaking this was in the 7th century nor how ahead of its time and unique it was up until the Enlightenment... to say other religions are just as valid as your own and that practicioners of other faiths will also be rewarded by your God? Finding such words in a religious text like the Koran is unheard of!
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CyberShy
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Delft, The Netherlands
Mar 1999
time: 06:35
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quote:
what yall dont seem to realize is that Islam is the only one of the semitic/abrahamic faiths that is truly universal. |
You mean universal in the meaning of: "90% of the muslims is of arabic origin"?
quote:
Other so-called universal religions (like Christianity) still insist salvation is only possible through Christ and living as Christ commanded. |
What's so non-universal about that?
Besides that, you're not right. Christians aren't obeyed to live as Christ to earn eternal life.
The bible and the koran have the same base, people were seperated from God and do not live up to His will.
God gave laws to show this.
These laws say: "Love to this and you shall live"
Now the koran stucks on the trying to live to it issue.
Muslims apparantly still didn't figure out that we, humans, are incapable of living good. We cannot earn eternal life since we are corrupted and evil in our own.
If you or me are before God in the end, we both will suffer under the weight of our sins. In either your case or my case we cannot stand for God, since we have broken his commands.
The difference is that you are on your own, since you'd rather try and fail then ask someone to help you.
I believe that Jesus will be next to me, and He'll say: "God, punish me in his place."
quote:
God gave the true faith to the Jews and the Christians but they corrupted it a bit for various reasons. |
Can you quote the koran where it says that the bible is corrupted?
Or is it only that 300 years after Mohammed the people from the islam found out that the koran, which tries to retell the bible, is wrong in many cases? (ie. not mary bit miriam is the mother of Jesus. And the father of Miriam is Amram. Oops, Mary and Miriam (the sister of Moses) were exchanged by accident.
Only then the muslims started to say that the Bible is corrupted. But it's not in the koran.
like the koran speaks about the sins of Mohammed, but does not speak about any sins of Jesus.
You know that the koran tells us we should pray for Mohammed, that God may let him enter in heaven.
But it does not tell us to do so for Jesus.
And you know that the koran doesn't tell us that mohammed will return. No, Jesus will return, and the muslims are waiting for Jesus.
Mohammed didn't try to invent a new religion.
I just thought he was writing the biblical tales, but he just didn't know them very well.
He thought the bible teaches that God, Jesus and Mary are the 3-in-1 God. While the Bible does not claim that mary is God. Why would Allah write in the koran that Mary is not God while nobody things that Mary is God?
Was Allah not aware of that?
Anyway, the koran doesn't teach you that the bible is corrupted. It even tells you to study the bible!
The books of the bible are holy in the koran as well.
Why don't you ever study them? Not to critize them, but since they're the word of God?
Islam is no different then Judaism. God gave laws you have to obey, and if you obey them you'll get into heaven. Ok, there are different laws, and different tales. But the heart is the same: "Earn your way into heaven."
But what if you're not able to earn heaven?
What are you going to do?
That's why Jesus came, because we can't earn heaven. We're not able to. We cannot live to the will of God. We can try but we won't accomplish it. Do you?
But Jesus lived up to the will of God (both in the koran and in the bible!! ) but he died in our place. (Allah apparantly made some mistake in the koran when he exchanged Judas with Jesus, since apparantly nobody noticed Allah's trick, and right now everybody is thinking Jesus died. Why would Allah perform such a trick while right now 1.8 billion christians worldwide believe Jesus died and ressurected?)
But Jesus died in your place. He is punished in your place.
Now it's up to you. Do you want to face Allah alone, in the end? Do you want to carry the weight of your own sins?
You can, nobody forces you to ask Jesus for help.
I wish you good luck with it!
If you scare away for that I suggest you to do what the koran teaches you to do: read the Bible.
quote:
The Jews, to the muslims, were too concerned with the laws and spiritless ritual... |
And what did Islam end up to be?
People being busy with laws and laws and laws.
And rituals. praying 5 times a day in all kinds of ways. On prefixed times. Why only pray 5 times? On prefixed times? Why not pray all day long, or when you want to ask God something? Or when you want to thank Him for something?
And what happens in Mecca, is that not one big ritual?
quote:
the Christians were too concerned with the great prophet Jesus, worshipping him as a God. |
The koran says the bible is the holy book of God.
And the bible says that Jesus is God.
And how wrong can it be to be concerned with the only prophet who's apparantly alive and will return?
Why are the muslims concerned with mohammed?
He's death. Jesus lives, according to the koran.
quote:
The basic message in Judaism and Christianity, the koran says, is truthful enough and is as God intended so, putting aside some aspects of both faiths, good Christians and Jews will have paradise... |
Are there good christians and jews?
Are there good muslims?
How can any man ever have paradise on his own?
I'm very glad that the muslims say that good christians will get into the muslim heaven. Thank you very much.
But I don't believe I'm allowed to. How can someone corrupted like me enter something as good as heaven?
Would heaven not get corrupted as well when corrupted people like you and me enter it?
quote:
to say other religions are just as valid as your own and that practicioners of other faiths will also be rewarded by your God? |
Yeah, I agree on that with you.
It's the modern shopping-religion.
The truth is what I want to be true.
We, the people from the western world, are blind.
Following our own feeling about good and evil.
Shame on us.
But that's not what the bible teaches. Don't confuse the western-religion with the christian teachings.
Last edited by CyberShy on 27-07-2004 at 14:08
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:35
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CyberShy:
quote:
Christians aren't obeyed to live as Christ to earn eternal life. |
umm... yes... following the 10 commandments, woshipping God, and treating others as you wish to be treated...
quote:
Muslims apparantly still didn't figure out that we, humans, are incapable of living good. We cannot earn eternal life since we are corrupted and evil in our own. |
well yeah... the genesis tale in the koran discusses how God made Adam the prince of the earth and ordered the angels to bow before him. Satan, however, refused, hence his leaving of heaven.
quote:
Can you quote the koran where it says that the bible is corrupted? |
not the bible... just the jewish and christian faiths...
quote:
not mary bit miriam is the mother of Jesus. And the father of Miriam is Amram. Oops, Mary and Miriam (the sister of Moses) were exchanged by accident. |
umm... Maryam is the arabic version of Mary...
quote:
You know that the koran tells us we should pray for Mohammed, that God may let him enter in heaven.
But it does not tell us to do so for Jesus. |
"They delcared: We have put to death the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Apostle of God... They did not slay him for certain. God lifted him up to Him; God is mighty and wise. There is none among the People of the Book but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will bear witness against them." Surah 4-157-158
yes, Jesus is, along with Mohammed, Moses, and Abraham, one of the great prophets in Islam...
quote:
And you know that the koran doesn't tell us that mohammed will return. No, Jesus will return, and the muslims are waiting for Jesus. |
well no... Jesus isn't supposed to return either according to the koran... the interesting thing though is that Jesus never died but, like Elisha, was lifted up by God to Him.
quote:
Why would Allah write in the koran that Mary is not God while nobody things that Mary is God? |
it does not say that anywhere
everything else you said was just believer's convictions... this is all subjective.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:35
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quote:
People being busy with laws and laws and laws. |
actually, compared to Judaism with its massive texts, islam is kind of lacking in laws...
quote:
And rituals. praying 5 times a day in all kinds of ways. On prefixed times. Why only pray 5 times? On prefixed times? Why not pray all day long, or when you want to ask God something? Or when you want to thank Him for something? |
there's no prefixed times per se...
quote:
The koran says the bible is the holy book of God.
And the bible says that Jesus is God. |
muslims would say that people still wrote the bible and inserted Jesus being the son of god.
quote:
Why are the muslims concerned with mohammed?
He's death. Jesus lives, according to the koran. |
why shouldnt they be? Mohammed was the most up to date, so to speak, of the prophets and the one that spoke arabic.
quote:
How can any man ever have paradise on his own? |
it's not on his own... it's through God... living as he proscribed. though yes, there is a very individualistic idea of salvation in Islam (the dialectic of the jihad within your soul)
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Elok
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Land of Ramen Dragons
Mar 2003
time: 00:35
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Huh.
I'm not gonna jump on the Islam-is-evil bandwagon, but has anybody mentioned that Islam is the only one of the world's major religions known to have turned violent within the lifetime of, and with the approval of, its founder? Maybe it was mentioned, but I'm too lazy to read six pages.
Personally, I don't trust any boogeyman hypotheses. People are mad and cruel because they want to be, not because an ideology possesses them. If there is a devil, he's going to be a living being, not a set of ideas that makes you crazy. Saying that Islam makes people into violent psychos is foolish. Ideals aren't really dangerous because people believe in them, but because people believe in themselves as the ideals and throw the real ones aside when they prove inconvenient.
Look at the French Revolution. The ideals? Liberty! Fraternity! Equality! In a word, what we think of as goodness itself. But the people identified so much with their ideals, which they thought correct, that they thought of their own wishes as infallible and forgot the dream itself. The actual concepts became euphemisms for "I am right." No cartoon supervillians here, folks. Just people who fought so hard they forgot what they were fighting.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:35
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i dont get what is with apolyton and islam... you bring up islam and all of a sudden, even liberals turn into full-fledged bigots.
and i want to beat the **** out of spink
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27-07-2004 03:07
) can respond as he seems to understand what the umma is...
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