30-07-2004 19:46									#331
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat How much detailed foreign policy discussion has any challenger (without the benefit of a sitting SecState, NSA, SecDef, and the whole NSC apparatus) from any party ever presented in a nomination speech?

It's the reason not to watch either the DNC or the RNC I don't need to be bored listening to annoying platitudes without any payoff when I have better things to do.

	30-07-2004 19:56									#332
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat How much detailed foreign policy discussion has any challenger (without the benefit of a sitting SecState, NSA, SecDef, and the whole NSC apparatus) from any party ever presented in a nomination speech?

last nights speech was filled with specifics, on defense and related issues. And on domestic policy too.

In any cases i dont need minute details - I dont need every ONE of my above points answered - I need some idea of what Kerry thinks American foreign policy is about - this is WARTIME after all, and a very LARGE part of Kerrys critique of Bush is on foreign policy.

I wanted at least as much detail as John Edwards provided, and somewhat more.

	30-07-2004 20:09									#333
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat How much detailed foreign policy discussion has any challenger (without the benefit of a sitting SecState, NSA, SecDef, and the whole NSC apparatus) from any party ever presented in a nomination speech?

He wont have a secdef, secstate, NSA, etc before November either?? Am i expected to vote for him not knowing if hes a "realist" or a democracy promoter? Not knowing if hes more a Lieberman or a Dean? Not knowing if his FP views are closer to MtG or to Ramo, or to my own?

There are many who hate Bush enough that ANY of thoes choices is still better, and so it doesnt matter. I think thats true for 90% of the convention delegates last night. But its NOT true for me, or for other fence sitters I think. And its us fence sitters that Kerry needs to reach out to, not to the anybody but Bush crowd.

	30-07-2004 20:14									#334
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I am with MtG- to expect a detailed discussion of possible policy for this speech honestly is a strage idea-that was not the point of this speech-this was to introduce Kerry to the people and give them a sense that Kerry can be president, particulars to be filled in later.

Edwards made references, but he made no specific policy pronouncements.

quote: 9. Stop opening firehouses in Iraq while closing them here. Could someone please tell me what the hell this line means??? Surely John isnt suggesting that we NEVER, EVER, close a firehouse in the USA? This is a huge country, and its population is often shifting. Surely sometimes it makes sense to close a firehouse? Or is he saying to stop reconstructing Iraq?

How could you possibly believe the last question? In our district in NYC they closed a firehouse soon asfter 9/11 due to budget cuts. If Fire departments are supposedly the front lines in the "war on terror", then in theory thy should get more funding, not cuts. I think is is simply obvious what he was saying.

The debates are for specifics, not campaign speeches at the convention.

	30-07-2004 20:19									#335
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I am with MtG- to expect a detailed discussion of possible policy for this speech honestly is a strage idea-that was not the point of this speech-this was to introduce Kerry to the people and give them a sense that Kerry can be president, particulars to be filled in later. Edwards made references, but he made no specific policy pronouncements. quote: 9. Stop opening firehouses in Iraq while closing them here. Could someone please tell me what the hell this line means??? Surely John isnt suggesting that we NEVER, EVER, close a firehouse in the USA? This is a huge country, and its population is often shifting. Surely sometimes it makes sense to close a firehouse? Or is he saying to stop reconstructing Iraq? How could you possibly believe the last question? In our district in NYC they closed a firehouse soon asfter 9/11 due to budget cuts. If Fire departments are supposedly the front lines in the "war on terror", then in theory thy should get more funding, not cuts. I think is is simply obvious what he was saying. The debates are for specifics, not campaign speeches at the convention.

Edwards made references - Kerry in a longer speech, with more specifics on almost everything else, didnt even make those references.

Fire houses - Im merely holding him to his rhetoric - as he holds Bush to his - the line has been used by some people who clearly dont think we should be building firehouses in Iraq - it reeks of traditional American isolationism "why are we giving all that damn foreign aid to them there foreigners, when weve got PROBLEMS right here" If he means something better by it, let him explain it. Or stop using the line.


The debates - well i await those.

For now Im unimpressed.

	30-07-2004 20:20									#336
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I had a lot of "well, d'uh!" moments in Kerry's speech. I mean, we all want a strong America, we all want to be safe from terrorist, we all want good jobs, good education. So, I am glad that Kerry wants all these things too, I want to know how we will do it.

	30-07-2004 20:27									#337
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I think the line, "stop building firehouses in Iraq, while closing them here," could mean stop nation building while we are trying to fight a war on terror, since the republicans abandoned their original justification of invading Iraq (war on terrorism).

	30-07-2004 20:27									#338
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quote: Originally posted by GePap quote: 9. Stop opening firehouses in Iraq while closing them here. Could someone please tell me what the hell this line means??? Surely John isnt suggesting that we NEVER, EVER, close a firehouse in the USA? This is a huge country, and its population is often shifting. Surely sometimes it makes sense to close a firehouse? Or is he saying to stop reconstructing Iraq? How could you possibly believe the last question?

"I know what we have to do in Iraq. We need a president who has the credibility to bring our allies to our side and share the burden, reduce the cost to American taxpayers, and reduce the risk to American soldiers. That's the right way to get the job done and bring our troops home."

Theres no prospect of getting more than a few thousand troops from our allies. Thats clearly not going to be enough to "do the job" and "bring our troops home" unless its going to be simply a face saving exercise for a retreat, a la Nixon in Viet Nam. Given that it seems quite plausible that John Kerry thinks building firehouses in Baghdad is a waste.

	30-07-2004 20:29									#339
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I think the line, "stop building firehouses in Iraq, while closing them here," could mean stop nation building while we are trying to fight a war on terror, since the republicans abandoned their original justification of invading Iraq (war on terrorism).

Yup thats exactly what it sounds like. Which means ive got a choice between the folks who cant competently implement nation building, and a guy who doesnt understand its an essential part of the WOT.


Can I puhleeze get to vote for Tony Blair???

	30-07-2004 20:33									#340
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Yup thats exactly what it sounds like. Which means ive got a choice between the folks who cant competently implement nation building, and a guy who doesnt understand its an essential part of the WOT.

He's a flip-flopper.

	30-07-2004 20:37									#341
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andy sullivan, whos very unhappy with Bush, and has been flirting with supporting Kerry, is harsher on the speech than I am

"No mention of democracy in Iraq or Afghanistan. No mention of the terrorist forces that are amassed there. No reference to the elections scheduled for January. No mention of Iran. And the whole point is about process - about how to wage a war, not whether it should be waged. This is a man who clearly wants the U.S. out of the region where our future is at stake, and who believes that simply by taking office, other powers can somehow pick up the slack. Memo to Kerry: no other powers can pick up the slack. They don't have the troops or the technology or the will. His strategy is pure defense. This sentence is his strongest threat: "Any attack will be met with a swift and certain response." So let's wait, shall we?"

	30-07-2004 20:38									#342
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quote: Yup thats exactly what it sounds like. Which means ive got a choice between the folks who cant competently implement nation building, and a guy who doesnt understand its an essential part of the WOT.

No, between folks who are so incompetent that they can't do anything right and people who realize that the United States cannot do nation building in Islamic countries.

The right lost this one a long time ago, it's a pity you haven't woken up to it yet.

	30-07-2004 20:44									#343
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc It's the reason not to watch either the DNC or the RNC I don't need to be bored listening to annoying platitudes without any payoff when I have better things to do.

Bingo!

	30-07-2004 20:48									#344
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark "I know what we have to do in Iraq. We need a president who has the credibility to bring our allies to our side and share the burden, reduce the cost to American taxpayers, and reduce the risk to American soldiers. That's the right way to get the job done and bring our troops home." Theres no prospect of getting more than a few thousand troops from our allies. Thats clearly not going to be enough to "do the job" and "bring our troops home" unless its going to be simply a face saving exercise for a retreat, a la Nixon in Viet Nam. Given that it seems quite plausible that John Kerry thinks building firehouses in Baghdad is a waste.

1. Under this admin, certainly, but as they say, things are always possible- we don;t know what sort of deals can be made by an admin. working on good faith and not hubirs.

2. "Get the Job done" if we pull and run, how is the job done?

3. extra local funding has nothing to do with massive mismanagement of funds sent to Iraq (which is whaty this admin has done), so cutting back the tax cut and cutting back waste and nepostism in ioraq more than makes possible to increase aid to local firehouses.

So I still failt o see your connections on these issue. I think doth assume too much.,

	30-07-2004 20:58									#345
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Is there anyplace the speeches are online to download? I'd like to see the Clinton and Obama speeches.

	30-07-2004 21:00									#346
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious He's a flip-flopper.

The Bush administration has greatly exaggerated Kerry's so-called "flip-flopping" by ignoring the reason, or how Kerry came to change his initiail vote on such proposals as new defense bills that really have nothing to do with giving our soldiers effective equipment, but rather with enriching certain companies and businesses.


I don't think you know much about how the legislation process actually works.

	30-07-2004 21:00									#347
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Bush and Kerry are both flip floppers, big time! I feel sorry for you undecideds who feel the compeling duty to vote.

Last edited by Kidicious on 30-07-2004 at 21:07

	30-07-2004 21:03									#348
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Kerry's speech was great. I always thought him to be a stiff, but he made a fan out of me. He looked and sounded presidential. I think we'll have a new president come November.



YIPPY!

	30-07-2004 21:06									#349
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun The Bush administration has greatly exaggerated Kerry's so-called "flip-flopping" by ignoring the reason

I really did vote for the 87 billion before I voted against it.

	30-07-2004 21:09									#350
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Oh look . . . . .


someone else who doesn't know of the nuances, complexities, and bargaining of the legislative process.

	30-07-2004 21:09									#351
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I don't think you know much about how the legislation process actually works.

I know that someone who implies that we shouldn't nation build and then says we need more troops to nation build in the same damn speech is a flip flopper.

	30-07-2004 21:11									#352
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I don't think that's what he meant with his firehouse comment, Kid . . . .

I think he was referring to the cutbacks that the police and firefighting forces experienced here in United States? Or no?

	30-07-2004 21:13									#353
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I don't think that's what he meant with his firehouse comment, Kid . . . . I think he was referring to the cutbacks that the police and firefighting forces experienced here in United States? Or no?

And tell me how that is connected to Iraq.

	30-07-2004 21:15									#354
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Just for you Mr Fun: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ed...issing_compass/

	30-07-2004 21:23									#355
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious And tell me how that is connected to Iraq.

Uh, let's see if you can hold two concepts in your head simultaneously and compare them.

Spending US tax money nationbuilding, (i.e. firehouses in Baghdad) vs. simultaneously reducing public services in the US due to lack of funding...

There, that wasn't too hard, was it, tovarich?

	30-07-2004 21:26									#356
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Firehouses are funded by the States and counties not the Federal government. The same reason why my gives a **** breaks whenever a candidate for federal office expects me to takes his education programs seriously.

	30-07-2004 21:27									#357
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Firehouses are funded by the States and counties not the Federal government. The same reason why my gives a **** breaks whenever a candidate for federal office expects me to takes his education programs seriously.

uhmmm the federal government does give states and local govt's funds for education

	30-07-2004 21:29									#358
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Yup thats exactly what it sounds like. Which means ive got a choice between the folks who cant competently implement nation building, and a guy who doesnt understand its an essential part of the WOT. Can I puhleeze get to vote for Tony Blair???

The flip side of "nationbuilding" is creating new targets for low-rent *******s to blow up as their way of sending messages, by hiring a limited number of contractors who are thoroughly versed in the legal corruption of government procurement (or hiring locals who are so corrupt they put our guys to shame), while running record deficits, swelling the national debt beyond all reason, and having the constant instability affect resource prices, further straining the economy.

Nationbuilding is nice in theory, but nationbuilding in the midst of unresolved hostilities isn't really doing a hell of a lot for us, so far.

	30-07-2004 21:31									#359
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quote: Originally posted by Sava uhmmm the federal government does give states and local govt's funds for education

Who pays most of the money? There's a cookie for you if you get the right answer.

	30-07-2004 21:32									#360
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Firehouses are funded by the States and counties not the Federal government.

The Feds used to return a lot of money to the states, which in turn helped the states fund things education and fire protection. Because of this recent recession, most states have had well publicized fiscal troubles. At the same time, the Feds promised money for police and fire protection, then didn't deliver.

The point being, if we can find the money to give rebuild Iraq, we havve the money to rebuild America. Obviously, when they want to succeed at something, they won't leave it to the free market, but at home state interference is bad.