30-07-2004 21:35									#361
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Firehouses are funded by the States and counties not the Federal government. The same reason why my gives a **** breaks whenever a candidate for federal office expects me to takes his education programs seriously.

Except for a few small details.

(a) the Feds tax the hell out of everything, so the states and municipalities are limited in what they can do on the tax and revenue side before they become the proverbial straw that breaks all the camel's backs;

(b) the Feds compound this further with unfunded mandates of every conceivable type, further draining state and municipal discretionary funding;

(c) the DHS and related agencies impose further WoT specific mandates on states and municipalities, and many of the state and municipal first response agency budget crises are directly related to DHS mandated actions and staffing levels, many of which are unfunded, as is typical of Federal arrogance.

The Feds may not fund firehouses, but they directly and indirectly affect the ability of states and municipalities to fund those items.

	30-07-2004 21:37									#362
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark "I know what we have to do in Iraq. We need a president who has the credibility to bring our allies to our side and share the burden, reduce the cost to American taxpayers, and reduce the risk to American soldiers. That's the right way to get the job done and bring our troops home." Theres no prospect of getting more than a few thousand troops from our allies. Thats clearly not going to be enough to "do the job" and "bring our troops home" unless its going to be simply a face saving exercise for a retreat, a la Nixon in Viet Nam. Given that it seems quite plausible that John Kerry thinks building firehouses in Baghdad is a waste.

Funny what difference an "H" makes. As in George H. W. Bush, who did an outstanding job of getting international support and commitment to deal with Saddam the first time.

Somehow, I don't think that "impossible" and "impossible for the George W. Bush administration" are synonymous.

	30-07-2004 21:38									#363
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Uh, let's see if you can hold two concepts in your head simultaneously and compare them. Spending US tax money nationbuilding, (i.e. firehouses in Baghdad) vs. simultaneously reducing public services in the US due to lack of funding... There, that wasn't too hard, was it, tovarich?

I was trying to get MrFun to see that *******

	30-07-2004 21:39									#364
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Who pays most of the money? There's a cookie for you if you get the right answer.

local gov'ts via property taxes

but there is an indirect effect when federal funds are cut or reduced... local taxes usually go up to cover the loss. For example, in 2002 during the gubenatorial elections, my city, Naperville, increased property taxes through a referrendum. If "No Child Left Behind" was actually being funded, my family wouldn't be paying more taxes. So while that $400 tax cut might seem nice, our local taxes got raised higher than that because of less federal money to education. And my local school disctrict is a good one... but still the fed gov't doesn't give it the necessary funding.

So Bush indirectly raised my taxes. Thanks.

	30-07-2004 21:57									#365
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Funny what difference an "H" makes. As in George H. W. Bush, who did an outstanding job of getting international support and commitment to deal with Saddam the first time. Somehow, I don't think that "impossible" and "impossible for the George W. Bush administration" are synonymous.

You seem to forget the fact that the first war was a protracted engagement designed to liberate Kuwait, It lasted a month, not because we won, but because that is what the deal was. This is the only reason France, Russia, and all the other Allies threw in for the fight. The opposition to invading Baghdad was there, just as it was a year ago.

	30-07-2004 22:00									#366
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle You seem to forget the fact that the first war was a protracted engagement designed to liberate Kuwait, It lasted a month, not because we won, but because that is what the deal was. This is the only reason France, Russia, and all the other Allies threw in for the fight. The opposition to invading Baghdad was there, just as it was a year ago.

It was designed to restore the dictator of Kuwait... not liberate. It's an important distinction, restoring an oppressive totalitarian regime, and "liberating" a people.

	30-07-2004 22:04									#367
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Somehow, I don't think that "impossible" and "impossible for the George W. Bush administration" are synonymous.

Bullshit and you know it Michael. I highly doubt that a change of leadership here is going to lessen the resistence of the European populace to getting involved with Iraq and it's going to take more than mere platitudes from you to even begin to convince me that it might be so.

	30-07-2004 22:06									#368
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Bullshit and you know it Michael. I highly doubt that a change of leadership here is going to lessen the resistence of the European populace to getting involved with Iraq

You really don't understand how hated Georgie is, do you? They'd work with Kerry just to spite Georgie and prove John-boy right.

	30-07-2004 22:09									#369
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You really don't understand how hated Georgie is, do you? They'd work with Kerry just to spite Georgie and prove John-boy right.

Bullshit and you know it... it's going to take more than mere platitudes from you to even begin to convince me that it might be so.

	30-07-2004 22:09									#370
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You really don't understand how hated Georgie is, do you? They'd work with Kerry just to spite Georgie and prove John-boy right.

	30-07-2004 22:10									#371
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I honestly believe it to be so. I honestly think a lot of resistence is due soely to the man in the office. Bush is so loathed that few countries want to help him out of the mess he made.

	30-07-2004 22:12									#372
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I honestly don't really care about BAM!s and would like something more substantive than an "I honestly believe it to be so".

	30-07-2004 22:15									#373
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle You seem to forget the fact that the first war was a protracted engagement designed to liberate Kuwait, It lasted a month, not because we won, but because that is what the deal was. This is the only reason France, Russia, and all the other Allies threw in for the fight. The opposition to invading Baghdad was there, just as it was a year ago.

Bush Sr. also managed to get financial commitments from many parties who were TOAB contributors on the ground. I really don't expect much in terms of bodies, and hopefully that's going to become more and more of an Iraqi issue, but this thing is going to cost well in excess of a trillion when you factor in the effect on global oil and gas prices.

Even if NATO bodies were limited strictly to providing training cadres for future Iraqi security forces, that would increase the quantity and quality of Iraqi swinging dicks on the ground.

Since most of the industrial world are net oil consumers, not producers, there's an economic case that can be made for increased financial contributions towards stabilization and security, since the money will either be paid by all parties anyway in the form of higher oil costs, or the money will be recovered by a more rapid stabilization of the security and oil infrastructure situation.

	30-07-2004 22:16									#374
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I honestly don't really care about BAM!s and would like something more substantive than an "I honestly believe it to be so".

I believe it to be so because I have friends who live in both England and France who visited recently(and relatives who live in Germany) who say people in their countries would support reconstruction in Iraq if Kerry was president. The feeling in Europe isn't "anti-American"... it's ANTI-BUSH.

But Republicans want everyone to think that being against Bush is being anti-American.

	30-07-2004 22:26									#375
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat The flip side of "nationbuilding" is creating new targets for low-rent *******s to blow up as their way of sending messages, by hiring a limited number of contractors who are thoroughly versed in the legal corruption of government procurement (or hiring locals who are so corrupt they put our guys to shame), while running record deficits, swelling the national debt beyond all reason, and having the constant instability affect resource prices, further straining the economy. Nationbuilding is nice in theory, but nationbuilding in the midst of unresolved hostilities isn't really doing a hell of a lot for us, so far.

I knwo what you believe about nationbuilding MtG, and im not going to argue it again. I DONT know what John F. Kerry believes, and that matters.

	30-07-2004 22:28									#376
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Bullshit and you know it Michael. I highly doubt that a change of leadership here is going to lessen the resistence of the European populace to getting involved with Iraq and it's going to take more than mere platitudes from you to even begin to convince me that it might be so.

It depends on the nature of the sales pitch and the product you're trying to sell them. Are there suddenly going to be 50-100 k additional foreign troops on the ground? Hell no.

Is there a possible economic case to be made for rapid stabilization and continuing improvement to Iraqi oil export infrastructure? Yes.

Is there an argument to be made for increased support for training and equiping Iraqi security forces, to get more of them better trained and in action quickly? Yes.

There are two big differences with new management in any enterprise. First, the old management (no matter who they are) are typically bureaucratically wedded to their chosen way of doing things, whether right or wrong. Second, the new management (especially of an entity with as much leveral and as big an ass to kiss as the US) has an opportunity to make new deals and get "favors" (even if they're really not) from parties who are interested in maintaining or improving relations with the new party in power.

It's got nothing to do with Bush and Kerry, it's straight Macchiavelli.

	30-07-2004 22:29									#377
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I have to say that Sava is 100% right. While there is anti-americanism in Europe, it isn't anything new or weird, there's anti-everything in Europe so you're not special. However, the new wave of protestors etc are strictly against administration, not the people or the country. You can say that if you're against the administartion, you're against the people, but that's not really true. So there are a lot of anti-bush people in Europe, that is true. You will see it, if Kerry gets elected, they will joy like Iraqi people on the streets .

	30-07-2004 22:30									#378
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I believe it to be so because I have friends who live in both England and France who visited recently(and relatives who live in Germany) who say people in their countries would support reconstruction in Iraq if Kerry was president. The feeling in Europe isn't "anti-American"... it's ANTI-BUSH. But Republicans want everyone to think that being against Bush is being anti-American.

Britain is already punching well above its weight in Iraq, so other than cementing New Labours political position its not clear this matters much. I doubt any support France will give to Kerry will be all that substantial.

Lets not forget that France's issues with US power did NOT start with Dubya. We were an "arrogant hyperpower" under Clinton. We had conflicts with them on trade, on Africa, on Israel, on Iran, and yes on Iraq during the Clinton years. Unless Kerry is going to be MORE accomodating to France than Clinton was (if so, Id like to hear about that) we are still going to have a difficult relationship with France.

	30-07-2004 22:30									#379
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It's because you're all damned commies.

	30-07-2004 22:31									#380
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Lets not forget that France's issues with US power did NOT start with Dubya. We were an "arrogant hyperpower" under Clinton. We had conflicts with them on trade, on Africa, on Israel, on Iran, and yes on Iraq during the Clinton years. Unless Kerry is going to be MORE accomodating to France than Clinton was (if so, Id like to hear about that) we are still going to have a difficult relationship with France.

At least we can agree on France.

	30-07-2004 22:34									#381
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Is there a possible economic case to be made for rapid stabilization and continuing improvement to Iraqi oil export infrastructure? Yes. Is there an argument to be made for increased support for training and equiping Iraqi security forces, to get more of them better trained and in action quickly? Yes.

That probably explains thier reluctance to even commit that much is the way of resources.

	30-07-2004 22:34									#382
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon No, between folks who are so incompetent that they can't do anything right and people who realize that the United States cannot do nation building in Islamic countries.

I know you believe that Agathon, if John Kerry also believes it I want to hear it from him.

	30-07-2004 22:35									#383
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Kerry doesn't take stands on issues, LOTM. It's not in his nature or his record.

	30-07-2004 22:40									#384
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Kerry doesn't take stands on issues, LOTM. It's not in his nature or his record.

Which is good. He believes in a compromise and seeks to make both sides of an issue happy. Which is a sharp contrast to Bush who takes stubborn ideological stances just to please the most extremist elements in his base.

What does that mean? Kerry wants to unite, Bush wants to divide. America wants a president that represents everyone, not just the extremists on one side of the political spectrum.

	30-07-2004 22:40									#385
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quote: Originally posted by GePap How could you possibly believe the last question? In our district in NYC they closed a firehouse soon asfter 9/11 due to budget cuts. If Fire departments are supposedly the front lines in the "war on terror", then in theory thy should get more funding, not cuts. I think is is simply obvious what he was saying. .

Front lines? Er, I think fire houses are the LAST line of defense in the war on terror. If firemen are rescuing folks from burning buildings due to a terr act, or a blown up train, or or pulling people from a tunnel filled with poison gas, thats already the end of a string of defeats. Defeats of law enforcement, of intell, of special operations, of public diplomacy, and yes, of nation building. Suppose there had been more firehouses in lower Manhattan on Sept 11, 2001. What would that have meant - a few more dead firefighters, is all.

What WOULD have stopped 9/11 would have been an interventions in Afghanistan more substantial than Clintons pinprick bombing, BEFORE 9/11. Now Im not blaming Clinton for that - or Bush either, for that matter. There wasnt the political will to do something like that with what was, after all, only sketchy intell.

So what I want to know is will Kerry act decisively when there is only sketchy intell???

	30-07-2004 22:42									#386
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The article I linked to earlier is for you too Sava.

	30-07-2004 22:46									#387
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Kerry doesn't take stands on issues, LOTM. It's not in his nature or his record.

I must respectfully disagree. All pols change over time, and the complexity of the legislative process leads to complex votes. Nonetheless I know in fairly great detail, considering hes not in office yet, where Kerry stands on prescription drugs, tax cuts, increasing the size of the army, etc. Compared to that level of detail I know nothing about his foreign policy values. Ive got people here saying he IS for nationbuilding in Iraq, and will do better cause of his ability to reach out to allies. Ive got Will Marshall agreeing. OTOH Ive got folks as far apart as Andrew Sullivan and Agathon in agreement that he doesnt beleive in nation building by the US in the muslim world - all positions that are equally defensible based on Kerrys RECENT public statements.

Im NOT the only one saying this - this AM's WaPo editorial makes a similar criticism.

Now Agathons Kerry is NOT MtG's Kerry. I very much need to know which one is the REAL kerry before I vote.

	30-07-2004 22:49									#388
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That's ridiculous.

Neither candidate says what they're going to do. It's the nature of politics.

The only reason you know what Bush is going to do is that you've seen what he has done. The question in the American system is: do I believe that a random person will do better than the current president.

From an American perspective, I can't see how that answer is anything but yes. From a global perspective, we'd like to see you continue shooting yourselves in the foot (as long as it doesn't go too far and start hurting us in a meaningful way).

	30-07-2004 22:49									#389
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat It depends on the nature of the sales pitch and the product you're trying to sell them. Are there suddenly going to be 50-100 k additional foreign troops on the ground? Hell no. Is there a possible economic case to be made for rapid stabilization and continuing improvement to Iraqi oil export infrastructure? Yes. Is there an argument to be made for increased support for training and equiping Iraqi security forces, to get more of them better trained and in action quickly? Yes. There are two big differences with new management in any enterprise. First, the old management (no matter who they are) are typically bureaucratically wedded to their chosen way of doing things, whether right or wrong. Second, the new management (especially of an entity with as much leveral and as big an ass to kiss as the US) has an opportunity to make new deals and get "favors" (even if they're really not) from parties who are interested in maintaining or improving relations with the new party in power. It's got nothing to do with Bush and Kerry, it's straight Macchiavelli.

so they wont give us troops, but they will give us money? So we can build more stuff for the insurgents to blow up?? So we can have money that cant be spent cause the contractors are afraid to go there?? AFAIK theres almost NO reconstruction going on in the Sunni triangle, because of the security situation.

ONce the security situation is dealt with, to make way for large scale reconstruction, the games largely won anyway. (Which would mean that Bush CAN succeed in Iraq without the stinkin' allies) John Kerry didnt imply last night that reaching out to France will save us money - he implied it will save us LIVES.

	30-07-2004 22:52									#390
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse That's ridiculous. Neither candidate says what they're going to do. It's the nature of politics. The only reason you know what Bush is going to do is that you've seen what he has done. The question in the American system is: do I believe that a random person will do better than the current president.

There are many people who think a random person would do better than Bush. Those people are already going to vote for Kerry. Given the polls, at least half the US electorate doesnt fall in that category, and those are the people Kerry needs to win over.

Again I dont want to know exactly what hes going to do. I DO want to know what direction hes going to head in.