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BigFree is offline BigFree

Emperor
Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 27-07-2004 23:30
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Yeah, go for it.

astrologix is offline astrologix
Emperor
On Earth
Jun 2002
time: 06:35
  Old Post 27-07-2004 23:44
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Well, after a long period of inactivity, I was hoping to have fun with this game....

E_T, I simply don't understand you....

A few days ago you were complaining of things perfectly justified. I had let drop a tear when you said that you had lost your partner after 8 years toghether.... you left this team, ok, all right.... Now you are come back and you showed an intense activity.... finally you opened that save....why ?

Are you sure that you are managing correctly all the personal parameters ? Can I advice you some holidays ?

Sincerely, I think you need it

Sorry if my english is too bad to tell such a things......

Kloreep is offline Kloreep

Emperor
of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 27-07-2004 23:47
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I think public disclosure needs to be made of an action like this. If GWT wants to talk about it further, we tell them what we can; but we can't disclose too much to them. Hell, we don't even know if they saw our whole stack or what. That's one reason I want an admin; so we can disclose everything to him and he can confirm (or deny) that we aren't gaining an advantage by this, WITHOUT us having to disclose sensitive information to GWT.

vondrack is offline vondrack

Emperor
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:35
  Old Post 28-07-2004 00:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Kloreep
Hell, we don't even know if they saw our whole stack or what.

That's exactly what I was thinking about... we may be occupied with the cheating agenda so much that we may be missing something much more natural. That GWT still DOES NOT KNOW we are coming. That they may find out only after opening the save this turn.

BigFree is offline BigFree

Emperor
Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 28-07-2004 00:34
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They saw us; the majority of us. Bongo all but confirmed specifically that in a chat just now. He wondered if a "Horsemen" was the issue we were dealing with. It just so happens a Horsemen is what is blocking our landing.

Kloreep is offline Kloreep

Emperor
of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 28-07-2004 00:41
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We can't be sure they didn't see Zealous instead. The one tile Zealous might have landed on is blocked by a horse.

BigFree is offline BigFree

Emperor
Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 28-07-2004 00:58
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They saw us, period. Whether it were those on the way to LZ4 or those follwing, it does not matter.

I personally think somone on GWT saw them all.

But, it matters not what I think; only what can be proven matters.

Let's move on...

Togas is offline Togas
Emperor
California
Jun 2002
time: 21:35
  Old Post 28-07-2004 01:01
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I agree with Beta that we should first have a private chat with GWT ... but BF seems to be saying that this chat has occured. I'll review the chatlogs, but if someone could post just the relevant parts in this thread or the GWT thread that would help us all.

We need to communicate to GWT the situation in a very polite and diplomatic and non-threatening fashion ... and we need to get their position on it.

There's 2 situations:
First, the allegations of cheating
Second, the acts of ET in replaying a previous save.

We need their take on both, and we need to present our position on both.

My suggestions on our position:

1) Members of our team are concerned because there is evidence that ships that were out of range were spotted by GWT. Can GWT confirm which ship(s) they spotted last turn? And if so, by what means?

2) ET is the only member of our team to replay the old save and he has since been screened off from the team, is no longer posting, and now has no part in the playing of the saves. We have not ejected him from the team, and hope that GWT does not demand that he be forced to leave. His actions were not done to gain any advantage but to settle an internal dispute we were having, thus we do not feel that he should be banned and hope that GWT will agree to allow him to stay.

--Togas

GodKing is offline GodKing
Emperor
Detroit
Feb 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 28-07-2004 04:34
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I agree with Togas above, but would add under his point #2 that the info ET did look it is really irrilevent to our current moves, and withing the next 2-3 turns will be so different that it wouldn't matter one way or another. Push the fact that it is a small thing (because IMHO it is SMALL).

Beta is offline Beta

Deity
Prowling in a PBEM near you!
Nov 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 28-07-2004 08:29 Visit Beta<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/lifer-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by GodKing
I agree with Togas above, but would add under his point #2 that the info ET did look it is really irrilevent to our current moves, and withing the next 2-3 turns will be so different that it wouldn't matter one way or another. Push the fact that it is a small thing (because IMHO it is SMALL).


I agree with him as well. So - who chats? I am available tomorrow night - but it might be better if Togas handled it. Just let me know if you want me there.

E_T is offline E_T
Emperor
Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:35
  Old Post 28-07-2004 13:51
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In my bit of defence, I strongly felt that if we were to continue and send off the save, that IF we had the situation investigated (which MZ and Kloreep had claimed that they would do that, after the save was played) and IF the admin had indeed from futher reason to replay, that the fact that we had sent off the save and not stopped right there, that the issue of replying would have been moot, because of things that not only us, but the other teams would have done differently. As we don;t know how long that could have taken, it might have meant that more then one full turn had been played and that would have really muddied up the issues.

Also, while in chat, One person was also threatening both Kloreep and MZ with CoC's, if they didn;t stop the game play to have it investigated at that time. So, I also did it for team unity

Plus, in a way, this gives me a reason to "break away" if you will, from this and the game, so that I can look to getting my life in order. The several days that I was gone, I had Withdrawls and such and I was back being at my computer and this game almost as much as before. I don;'t know if anyone else here smokes, but giving up something that has been as adictive as this all has been to me very much like trying to go cold turkey with cigarettes.

So, if anything, I'm made a move that kind of forces me, in full knowledge of the consequences, to have to leave. Granted, that I didn;t want to have this happen like this as I was hopeing to transition out of this with new people coming in to replace me. And, Yes, I appoligize to my fellow team members, because I know that I've let you all down. But the things is, in a way, for me, that this had to be done.

You know, after I did that, I had more than 24 hours of Conversation, reconsiliation and understanding between my self and my former DP. Even though we are parting, we are parting as freinds. And he is actually happy for me, that I had done something like this, they way that I had done that, because, for someone who also used to play RP games and such, he understands the signifcance of my action. Shoot, we even had a little "going away" sex, which in any form has been very lacking because of my involvement and addiction to this game. He also realizes, that I've likely burned a bridge that can't be recrossed, with my friends here (of which I still hope that I can call you all that) and that It wasn;t something to be lightly taken.

Granted, I don;t wish to go, but yes, I do need to, now that this has happen. I will still try to get into chat, atleast for a while, as I'll still need to help with teh trasition to WB and the Consuls (and whom ever will be taking over).

I have been asked to voluntarally leave, which I'll do so, within the next 24 hours, as I still want to gets some transition started and understood as to what I have as part of the plans that I was working on.

E_T

Beta is offline Beta

Deity
Prowling in a PBEM near you!
Nov 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 28-07-2004 16:49 Visit Beta<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/lifer-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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E_T - thanks for posting. You take care of yourself my friend. This team cares about you.

conmcb25 is offline conmcb25

Emperor
Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:35
  Old Post 28-07-2004 17:06 Visit conmcb25<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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Good luck E_T. you will be sorely missed but I have been beginning to think the past couple of weeks that this is the best thing for you to get things in order for yourself.

vondrack is offline vondrack

Emperor
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:35
  Old Post 28-07-2004 18:14
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Good luck, E_T. You certainly deserve a break. And as con puts it, from an outsider's PoV, a break seems to be what you need to get your stuff back in order.

See you!

Tiberius is offline Tiberius

Emperor
Europe
Jan 2000
time: 06:35
  Old Post 28-07-2004 18:31
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E_T, good decision Your real life is more important than this (or any) game. Good luck and take care.

Aidun is offline Aidun
King
The Hague, the capital of the civilized world
Nov 2002
time: 06:35
  Old Post 28-07-2004 20:15
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Thanks for posting this E_T. I wish you luck.

May we notify you when this game is over, and may we put a Godking by your side to tie your hands on your back from time to time, so you can't get as involved in the next game as with this game?

I hope you find a new DP soon and a job as well.

Good luck E_T

Aidun

astrologix is offline astrologix
Emperor
On Earth
Jun 2002
time: 06:35
  Old Post 28-07-2004 20:19
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Good luck, E_T

Krill is offline Krill
Emperor
On a cold wet rock, in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.
Dec 2003
time: 05:35
  Old Post 28-07-2004 22:02
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Good luck mate, I hope you get everything back in order

Lord Nuclear is offline Lord Nuclear
Duke of Civ3 Hall of Fame

Donate to the Red Cross
and the Apolyton University
Jun 2002
time: 21:35
  Old Post 28-07-2004 22:10
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E_T, take care of yourself. You'll be very missed.

Kloreep is offline Kloreep

Emperor
of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 28-07-2004 23:00
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quote:
Originally posted by E_T
Also, while in chat, One person was also threatening both Kloreep and MZ with CoC's, if they didn;t stop the game play to have it investigated at that time. So, I also did it for team unity


I'd just like to stop on this and say I certainly prefer that to an illegal save replay. But, that's pretty much moot now, and I see you had other reasons.

quote:
Originally posted by E_T
He also realizes, that I've likely burned a bridge that can't be recrossed, with my friends here (of which I still hope that I can call you all that) and that It wasn;t something to be lightly taken.


36 hours ago, I would have said you'd burned all your bridges. But, I've calmed down since then and while this situation still makes me feel sick, I'm not really angry anymore.

Good luck, E_T.

Kloreep is offline Kloreep

Emperor
of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 29-07-2004 03:12
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I'd like to post this at the UN.

quote:
Okay, it's high time we got to the disclosure part.

A member of our team, E_T, was concerned about possible cheating on GWT's part. He was not satisfied with the investigation, or rather current lack thereof, and decided to take matters in to his own hands by opening our 730 AD save and taking a different move with a unit than had actually been played out.

This is why an immediate admin replacement would be helpful; we cannot disclose all of our information to GWT to reassure them this should not effect the game, but we can to an admin, who can then tell GWT whether or not they believe the game can proceed unhindered.

And also, GWT can disclose their info to an admin. E_T was the only one to break the rules, but others are also suspicious of GWT, and it would be good to resolve these suspicions for the sake of peace within my own team.


I made as little reference to the fleet as possible, stating he only moved one unit. (I believe we can conclude they've seen SOMETHING out there. Bongo as much as said he thought he was about their seawall in our chat. So admitting we have one unit in range of GWT shouldn't be a security risk.)

Last edited by Kloreep on 29-07-2004 at 03:20

Beta is offline Beta

Deity
Prowling in a PBEM near you!
Nov 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 29-07-2004 03:18 Visit Beta<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/lifer-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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I don't know if I am comfortable with the phrase "others are also suspicious". It could be 2% or it could be 95% of the team. Can we say a small minority - or maybe leave the part out all together. The reason for the delay and the need for an admin are clear enough from the first part. The second part implies we also need an admin to make sure they didn't cheat, and I think the majority view is that we feel that they did not.

Kloreep is offline Kloreep

Emperor
of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 29-07-2004 03:20
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I would like to see an investigation for the sake of peace and quiet on this team, but it can come later, and it may be too inflammatory. I'll take it out.

OPD is offline OPD
King
Birmingham UK
Jun 2002
time: 05:35
  Old Post 29-07-2004 03:27
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I dunno to GWT the whole thing could sound quite accusing.

It would be better to not post a message at all rather than post one that would offend a team.

vondrack is offline vondrack

Emperor
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:35
  Old Post 29-07-2004 03:46
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I guess I feel like OPD - I mean... the more I think about the situation, the less I am seeing a reason to suspect cheating on GWT's side. No matter whether they had or had not a chance to see us coming, no matter whether they raised their seawall only recently - clues like those are too feeble to justify anything even remotely resembling an accusation of cheating.

What are we going to say when GWT asks about our reasons to suspect them? "Um, well, we thought you'd leave the landing zone we had chosen conveniently uncovered - but you covered it! Bloody murder! No way it could be smart, diligent play on your side. You must have taken a peek!"

That's ALL we have, is it not?

Kloreep is offline Kloreep

Emperor
of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 29-07-2004 04:33
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Here's the edited version.

quote:
Okay, it's high time we got to the disclosure part.

A member of our team, E_T, was concerned about possible cheating on GWT's part. He was not satisfied with the investigation, or rather current lack thereof, and decided to take matters in to his own hands by opening our 730 AD save and taking a different move with a unit than had actually been played out.

This is why an immediate admin replacement would be helpful; we cannot disclose all of our information to GWT to reassure them this should not effect the game, but we can to an admin, who can then tell GWT whether or not they believe the game can proceed unhindered.


What I'm trying to accomplish is disclosure. One of our teammates violated the rules and saw parts of the GWT area he should not; it's our duty to admit to this and to let an admin investigate (unless they trust us to handle this ourselves, but I have no idea if they will, and I think it might simply be better to have an outside observer double-checking rather than letting it rest on our judgement alone). I don't mean to be accusing towards GWT at all. We're the ones at fault here.

Togas is offline Togas
Emperor
California
Jun 2002
time: 21:35
  Old Post 29-07-2004 04:46
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Kloreep, The revision is good. Let's get it posted.

--Togas

Hot_Enamel is offline Hot_Enamel
Emperor
Melbourne, Australia
Aug 2002
time: 14:35
  Old Post 29-07-2004 04:55
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"cheating" is a strong and offensive word.
Use "inconsistencies" or similar.


But IMO, we should not be posting anything other than "we need an admin to check some inconsistencies"

And play the save.

rush is offline rush
Prince
Tokyo
Jul 2002
time: 12:35
  Old Post 29-07-2004 05:22
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We should include a line saying E_T has left the team and that the information he gathered was not shared.

E_T, i have always admired your dedication to this game. All the best.

BigFree is offline BigFree

Emperor
Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 29-07-2004 05:30
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I don't think we need to metion E_T by name to GWT. "A member of Apolyton" should suffice.

 
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